Front lever help

Well, I need some experience advices about FL workout. So, how many times per week should I train, how many exercise per workout and important thing what kind of exercies. I started to train FL like 4-5 months ago and I can't see any progression. For example, I'm able to hold advanced tuck FL for about 25 sec in four sets in workout, with one leg for about 10-15 each one, I can easly do Ice-Cream makers, etc, but I can't even hold for 1 sec full FL. I can stop my postition in full FL for some sec but with a bent arms. I don't know whats going on, where is the key in this movement? My training looks like this:

2 sets of few slow negatives FL

4 sets of advanced tuck FL 25 sec hold

2 sets of few front lever kicks

2 sets of 10 sec hold on resistance band

2 sets of 10 reps bulgarian rows

My height : 186cm

My weight : 93 kg

My freinds tell me Im so close to hold it in clean form but I *** can't

Should I stay in basics like advanced tuck hold till I get my time to 40-60 sec holds or I need to change with one leg holds at now?

I can hold clean back lever for about 30 sec, human flag my PR 20 sec in clean form, so I can say that my core is pretty strong I hope I'll find some helps on this site cuz I don't where should I find yet

Thanks for any advice!

did u try straddle half lay?

Yes I tried, but it's kinda hard too. Should I focus and strengthen my lats, core ? Or maybe I overtrain myself, don't really know what I do wrong.

Ok here we go

This is my old video from June last year where I show some exercises from my workout. When I did not see any progression I stopped my training and then as I wrote in my first post, I restart my FL workout like 4-5 months ago regularly.

My form from this video is not perfect, now it looks much better.

Take off your shoes. 

Hollow body holds have done wonders for my FL development. Also, all your exercises are geared towards the FL, why not try and do something that targets other areas, as those may be the areas that need strenghtning to move forward?

If I look at the Foundation series, in the 4 day template, we only work 1 exercise 2x a week that's specifically aimed at the FL. So maybe you're focusing way too much on FL type stuff and should spread your focus on other areas as well?

KingJR said:

Hollow body holds have done wonders for my FL development.

Pointing my toes in hollow holds helped me learn to keep tension in the back of my body too, which helped it feel more like a 'lever' than disconnected pieces trying to hold up.

I am total amateur at GST, but this is my opinion: by gymnastics standards you are pretty "big guy". For us big guys (I'm 184cm  ) progress is very slow. The reason why you can't see any progression is maybe because your progress is so small that you fail to notice it. Especially if you compare yourself with someone who is lower than you. There are few big guys on this forum with front lever. One of them is Joshua Naterman https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/user/1003-joshua-naterman/ so his opinion would be best and most appreciated 

Here is a video that should give you a lot of training ideas adjust the difficulty of these exercises as needed, skip to 45 seconds:

I briefly reviewed your training video and would recommend relying less on momentum and more on slow controlled movements and training static holds.

Thanks guys for ur opinions, I appreciate it!

@mrpraktic

You are right, Ye im big and maybe thats why I cant see significant progress in my training. I need to be more patient then. Anyway I will try to contact with Joshua. I hope he will give me some more info about FL.

By the way, I do hollow back holds, dragon flags, roller abs etc and still cant squeeze my body to hold a full FL... It's annoying

Have you considered starting the Foundation series?

 Gim, do you have a solid body lever?

 If you do, more work on the front lever movements SLOWER and holds. If you have a solid body lever, it is basically something to do with your pull strength. Being taller and bigger (Cisco above isn't terribly big) means leverage is against you even if you have SICK pull strength.

I've had similiar experiences, my front lever was stuck with adv. tuck for like a half a year, and suddenly I've gone in a matter of weeks (5 or so) from not even able to have a fraction of straddle lever to being able to descent into a +-4 second full front leverfrom a dead hang.

I think the most contributing factor has been training the side lever with back facing downwards and trying to get the feel for all of my back muscles.

So at some point I realized that i felt my lats and all back muscles firing in a way i hadn't achieved before when doing front lever, and that I could hold a level of scapula protraction that feld incredibly stable, and really get a burn to my lats if I wanted to.

I'm also 186cm tall and 89 kg.

It will come with time!

And what comes to the Foundation series, I was surprised how much flaws there are still in my basic strength and shoulder mobility! Definitely worth considering.

@Joshua

Not really, can u tell me something about these series?

Maybe I should focus and get stronger by doing some exercise on my scapula protraction.

@Blairbob

I think yes, but what type of exercises do u recommend to get solid body lever?

 For front lever to sum up. Make body levers be simple and have strong pulling strength. All kinds of pullups, rope climbs, tuck and straddle front lever pullups, etc.

 Get crazy pull strength like Cisco (he was a climber before gymnastics really). Obviously you don't need his kind of pull strength for just front lever but you get the idea.

 You're a bigger guy so you will need some sick pull strength like Josh.

gim said:

@Joshua

 

Not really, can u tell me something about these series?

 

Maybe I should focus and get stronger by doing some exercise on my scapula protraction.

 

@Blairbob

 

I think yes, but what type of exercises do u recommend to get solid body lever?

Sure!

The Foundation series is a four part, completely comprehensive, guide to the world of basic gymnastic strength. The basics are full lay front lever, straddle planche, body lever, Manna, etc. There are seven basic GST movements. By the end of the program you will not just be able to perform them all for 10 seconds each, you will be able to do so in your regular workouts, on a regular basis, without hurting yourself.

Things that make Foundation completely unique:

• It is designed by a USA Men's Gymnastics National Team Coach with over 30 years' experience
• It takes care of your mobility and strength needs at the same time
• is a beautifully balanced program, there are no muscle groups missed
• It requires very little equipment
• Every single day of training is mapped out for you. There is zero guess work.
• Every single exercise has high resolution video of proper form, so that you know what your body movement and position should look like when you work out.
• You have a customer-only forum that is already heavily populated with experienced trainees for support, should you need it
• This series prepares your body for later series, which will take you to the next level. Mastery of "basic" GST is impressive, but it is just the beginning of the journey. I won't spoil the surprises, but what comes after the Foundation will build the kind of strength that most people think is reserved for those who are born "lucky."

Without the Foundation, your body will not be prepared to take the rest of the journey, in strength, mobility, or skill. That is why Foundation 1-4 is the first series to be released!

Helander said:

 

So at some point I realized that i felt my lats and all back muscles firing in a way i hadn't achieved before when doing front lever, and that I could hold a level of scapula protraction that feld incredibly stable, and really get a burn to my lats if I wanted to.

 

Wait... aren't you supposed to retract the scapula during a front lever?

red1392 said:

Wait... aren't you supposed to retract the scapula during a front lever?

Yeah, that's  true, and I expressed that in a bad manner. What I mean is that I just feel that being able to switch between protracted and retracted position with control in itself is an improvement in my scapular control, and is a marker of general development in back strength.

Gim, get F1 and go from there.

Judging by your video, I think you make the same mistake I did: When you train adv. tuck front lever, you keep the back horizontal. However, when you then later begin to add one leg, straddle, half lay and eventually full lay, your body drops, due to the additional leverage, and your lats being only strong enough to hold the arm angle you're used to. Try reducing the angle by angling your body perhaps 10-20 degrees above horizontal during adv. tuck FL. Then your body would hit, more or less, horizontal by the time you get to full lay.

Ravn said:

 Try reducing the angle by angling your body perhaps 10-20 degrees above horizontal during adv. tuck FL. Then your body would hit, more or less, horizontal by the time you get to full lay.

Very good point! 

You could go as far as working from top and down: Get in an inverted bar hang - from this position I find it much easier to get contact with your lats and you can use a bit of stretch reflex.

ANd try another programing - avoid muscle fatique. Looking at your video it seems like you are building up way too much fatique and the eccentrics in the end are not really contributing with anything but need for longer restitution-breaks.

You are already musclular - so go for strength: high frequency, low volume and high intensity (but no fatigue and no eccentrics).

Zach Armijo said:

Retracted scaps in a FL should really be taken lightly. When people read that they need to be retracted in a FL, they go for full blown retraction, which is a quick way back to the ground. While SOME retraction is necessary, what you really should be striving for is a WIDENING of the scaps. There is a difference, and if you can't distinguish those two yet, then keep chipping away at F1 & 2. When you widen your scaps, you feel as if you are trying to separate the bar/rings, where in retraction, you are more or less performing a straight arm row. Like Helander was touching on, scapular control is everything.

Well this is new to me. Thanks for the info. All this time I've been going full blown retraction and getting nowhere. By separate the bar/rings, you mean pull them apart to the sides right?

Helander said:

Yeah, that's  true, and I expressed that in a bad manner. What I mean is that I just feel that being able to switch between protracted and retracted position with control in itself is an improvement in my scapular control, and is a marker of general development in back strength.

I tried your side lever tip out today in between some sets and you're right! I feel like it does help with the lat activation.

@Joshua

Thanks man for this information about Foundation series!! I didn't know before about this program. I got F1 already. I'll try with these series, I hope its gonna help me a little bit

@Ravn

Thanks buddy, That's a good info!!

Anyway, Thanks to all of you guys, thanks for ur time and all advices! Im really appreciated. In 2 months I'll make a next video of my FL progress and then you'll see guys if I've improved or not

Gim, I think you're going to find that it helps a lot