Collagen Hydrolysate

Something I have been integrating for the last week or so, especially post workout, is Collagen Hydrolysate: http://www.greatlakesgelatin.com/consumer/CollagenFAQ.php

It may be of particular interest for many of us here for its connective tissue benefits, especially for those of us past our mid twenties. I am not ready to completely declare a victory with it, but I have noticed this last day or two that joints which have consistently given me trouble noise/sensation wise for a number of years were no longer as pronounced. Nothing major, but definitely a noticeable difference and one it took some time to associate since my wife had just been feeding me the stuff and I wasn't paying it much attention.

Anyways, I thought it might be of interest for some folks to check out. The stuff mixes well with pretty much anything, and doesn't seem to have much taste at all - didn't even notice it in some fruit infused water my wife mixed up for the first testing.

- Chris

been using it for a while. 

i've definetely noticed that more movement + using this stuff doesn't substitute movement but i do agree on the connective tissue point. i can definetely feel it in my fingers, ankles, knees the most. 

Interesting, thank you for posting.

Is the collagen able to pass through the intestinal barrier and be absorbed directly, or does it have to be metabolized into amino acids to be absorbed?

I am interested in reading more of you guys experience with that product

Will post a follow-up after a bit more time has elapsed. Things definitely look promising though. 

Here is a link to a summary of some of the clinical studies that were done on a commercial product built around CH: http://www.betterjoints.com/professionals/clinical.php

Rather interesting stuff. A lot of the material I have come across seems to discount it in favor of whey and such because it is incomplete in and of itself. However, I think as an additive it really could boost the effects of an already protein rich diet, especially for those of us with semi beaten-up and/or neglected connective tissues. Have also seen talk of metabolic boosting properties, which is cool if that is the case, but I think the former is the more applicable benefit for those of us doing GST.

- Chris

EDIT: Link above is meant to be a summary of studies so people could dredge them up if they were interested. Josh pointed out at least one of them is not peer-reviewed - so, don't take anything on the commercial site as gospel.

the metabolic part is correct but i do not know to what degree.

what I have seen from clients being treated for fatty liver is that when other lab's came out normal, the liver fat content was actually in a severe state when there was a below avg production of Collagen in the body. 

interesting stuff. 

Peer reviewed articles tend to show no support for collagen protein having any effect on joints, but there are a lot of anectodal accounts that suggest something may be slipping between the cracks. If it works for you, great!

It is possible for rather large molecules to make their way through the intestines, yes. When you take proteases, you see an increase in the blood count of said enzymes.

There is not a large enough body of clinical evidence supporting collagen protein as a supplement for joint health to say that science really backs this up, but there do appear to be other effects, including a reduction in pain.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23342047

 and http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=collagen+hydrolysate

if you want to really do some reading

I have not had time to check whether this has any effect on tendons or ligaments.

Edit: I could find no studies examining the effect on anything but osteoarthritis.

If you're going to try joint supplementation, it is probably best to use a combination of MSM, glucosamine and chondrointin sulfates, hyaluronic acid (if possible), and the hydrolized collagen. My reasoning on this is that these all have effects on different aspects of collagen synthesis and joint health, and are very likely to have a synergistic effect. I could be wrong, this is pure extrapolation.

Final post, at least for a while, on this topic:

I could not verify the cartilage thickening/thinning research by Ribas Fernández et al. 1998 in the link that Chobbs posted. It was either not peer-reviewed or is not in any available database (which I find unlikely).

Do not rely on that website for factual information. It is a product marketing page, nothing more. If you want facts, stick to peer-reviewed research.

Joshua Naterman said:

 

If you're going to try joint supplementation, it is probably best to use a combination of MSM, glucosamine and chondrointin sulfates, hyaluronic acid (if possible), and the hydrolized collagen. My reasoning on this is that these all have effects on different aspects of collagen synthesis and joint health, and are very likely to have a synergistic effect. I could be wrong, this is pure extrapolation.

Anecdotally, this is what I've been doing, having osteoarthritis in my left elbow, ROM is the same at 10 months post-op but pain and joint function are significantly improved. 

Joshua Naterman said:

(...) If you're going to try joint supplementation, it is probably best to use a combination of MSM, glucosamine and chondrointin sulfates, hyaluronic acid (if possible), and the hydrolized collagen. My reasoning on this is that these all have effects on different aspects of collagen synthesis and joint health, and are very likely to have a synergistic effect. I could be wrong, this is pure extrapolation.

Is that something that could work on tendon collagen too?

Joshua Naterman said:

Final post, at least for a while, on this topic:

 

I could not verify the cartilage thickening/thinning research by Ribas Fernández et al. 1998 in the link that Chobbs posted. It was either not peer-reviewed or is not in any available database (which I find unlikely).

 

Do not rely on that website for factual information. It is a product marketing page, nothing more. If you want facts, stick to peer-reviewed research.

Thanks for digging in. I posted an edit line warning people to use it only as a reference of studies to try and pull up.

- Chris

No problem! I was skeptical of that kind of change, I mean if bikers really lost 13% thickness in their cartilage over even a year, they'd all have osteoarthritis within a few years, and we know that doesn't happen, which immediately set my BS alarm off, so I dug in.

That product might, in fact, be excellent, I don't know, but the things they are quoting do not seem to be representative of the consensus.

As for the tendon collagen, very likely yes, because it DOES increase the production of collagen in skin. This effect was reported over and over again in peer-reviewed studies, so there is no reason to believe that this wouldn't do the same thing in other tissues. It appears that our ability to produce our own collagen starts to become compromised in our mid-20's, which makes me wonder if this has something to do with why it is easier to get injured as we get older, or perhaps why our tissues become stiffer as we get older. In other words, I am wondering if the reduced production, however slight, is in part responsible for suboptimal collagen remodeling. It would be interesting to see a CH vs. control study in the treatment of muscle strains and other soft tissue traumas. Perhaps even flexibility... Would be very interesting, indeed.

I ordered some collagen last night, to use as a way to see if I can, perhaps, speed up the healing of some of my more... irritating injuries lol They're actually doing ok, but I will notice if things speed up or get significantly better over the next 6 months.

I will probably also pick some up for my dad, since he has all kinds of arthritis issues.

I was actually about to start a topic regarding this. I just ordered some beef gelatin powder to try out. Ever since ramping up GST I have noticed a LOT of popping and cracking. Used to only be my fingers, now it's everywhere - shoulders, spine, elbows (my left elbow pops/cracks whenever I do dislocates, which ever since starting H1 I have been doing a lot of)

I'm not worried necessarily, but it'd be nice if that didn't happen so much. Will report back in a few weeks.

Also, love the forum! been reading for a long time but just decided to sign up recently - pleased to make your acquaintance.

 Looking forward to hearing back from your experience with it, Josh. Both my dad and little brother are recovering from hip injuries and a leg break. My lil brother got all sorts of screwed up in basic before they sent him home so my mom is kind of watching over him as he heals up. I don't think dad wants to take any protein though. Bah.

I will post updates for sure

I've been taking it for a few days, not nearly long enough to say much, but I have a very clear catalogue of all my little complaints It sound take 3-6 months to notice significant improvements, so we will see what happens!

I am using regular gelatin right now, the hydrosylate is in the mail. I will probably finish the gelatin and then move to the hydrosylate.

The studies examining skin collagen production noted that the hydrosylate was significantly more effective, but that the gelatin also increased collagen synthesis.

Other things that could be considered:

• PHARMACEUTICAL GRADE L-proline (apparently the sole precurser to the rate-limiting intermediate material in our natural collagen production)
• PHARMACEUTICAL GRADE Chondrointin Sulfate (the only one I have had time to actively review research on)
• PHARMACEUTICAL GRADE Glucosamine Sulfate
• PHARMACEUTICAL GRADE MSM

Only the pharmaceutical grade chondrointin was shown definitively to have a positive effect. This is actually very affordable from NutraBio.com, as are the other three. 500g powder form is cheap, and will last for ~500 doses, or nearly a year if taken twice a day. That's a serious bargain.

I have absolutely no idea if there is any additive effect between these, I haven't even looked (yet, it's finals week after all, and I have to pretend to study so that I feel somewhat good about getting A's) to see if research on such specific combinations exists. All of this is stuff I will probably try to study in med school if it does not already exist.

Joshua Naterman said:

The studies examining skin collagen production noted that the hydrosylate was significantly more effective, but that the gelatin also increased collagen synthesis.

 

Other things that could be considered:

 

• PHARMACEUTICAL GRADE L-proline (apparently the sole precurser to the rate-limiting intermediate material in our natural collagen production)
• PHARMACEUTICAL GRADE Chondrointin Sulfate (the only one I have had time to actively review research on)
• PHARMACEUTICAL GRADE Glucosamine Sulfate
• PHARMACEUTICAL GRADE MSM

Only the pharmaceutical grade chondrointin was shown definitively to have a positive effect. This is actually very affordable from NutraBio.com, as are the other three. 500g powder form is cheap, and will last for ~500 doses, or nearly a year if taken twice a day. That's a serious bargain.

 

 

Hey I get Glucosamine and Chondroitin from there, too! Tastes like clam juice 

I'd be interested in hearing later whether you recommend atting MSM and L-proline.

My understanding is that MSM is a good add.

I do not know if proline would offer anything additive to the hydrolized collagen... that would be interesting.

Joshua Naterman said:

 

If you're going to try joint supplementation, it is probably best to use a combination of MSM, glucosamine and chondrointin sulfates, hyaluronic acid (if possible), and the hydrolized collagen. My reasoning on this is that these all have effects on different aspects of collagen synthesis and joint health, and are very likely to have a synergistic effect. I could be wrong, this is pure extrapolation.

hmmm, so true. I didn't notice that I was taking the Collagen while I was taking my Glucosamine Sulfate + MSM. it is true that I feel better joint movement, not necesarily joint strengthening or thickening, but it is a side effect of the practice and keeping on point with my hydration has helped me with the joint health, for sure. 

you are so right when you say that we cant state personal experience as clinical facts or truths. it does bear some weight, but what can be good for one person could be harmful to another or not beneficial at all.

Joshua Naterman said:

Peer reviewed articles tend to show no support for collagen protein having any effect on joints, but there are a lot of anectodal accounts that suggest something may be slipping between the cracks. If it works for you, great!

 

It is possible for rather large molecules to make their way through the intestines, yes. When you take proteases, you see an increase in the blood count of said enzymes.

 

There is not a large enough body of clinical evidence supporting collagen protein as a supplement for joint health to say that science really backs this up, but there do appear to be other effects, including a reduction in pain.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23342047

 and http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=collagen+hydrolysate

if you want to really do some reading

 

I have not had time to check whether this has any effect on tendons or ligaments.

 

Edit: I could find no studies examining the effect on anything but osteoarthritis.

 

 

If you're going to try joint supplementation, it is probably best to use a combination of MSM, glucosamine and chondrointin sulfates, hyaluronic acid (if possible), and the hydrolized collagen. My reasoning on this is that these all have effects on different aspects of collagen synthesis and joint health, and are very likely to have a synergistic effect. I could be wrong, this is pure extrapolation.

I had knee pain every now and then and I still have shoulder issues that need to be looked at so I'm going to try this idea out! I like the concept behind it, and if your extrapolation is correct Josh, I don't know how I'm going to thank you enough 

 Hmm, I guess while I have iHerb open, I can see if they have any collagen hydrosalate or joint complex. My knees ache mildly when I'm not at the gym.

How would this type of collagen stand against UC-II collagen.

I'm using UC-II for moths (with breaks in between) and can say in my case (also joint problems) it has helped, no positive thinking here, pure observation. As med research on it suggests it works best in combination with Glucosamine, Chondrointin and MSM.

Blairbob said:

 Hmm, I guess while I have iHerb open, I can see if they have any collagen hydrosalate or joint complex. My knees ache mildly when I'm not at the gym.

Did you find anything good on iHerb Blairbob?

So, that stuff is specifically for preventing your immune system from attacking your own joints by modulating its reactivity to specific proteins. Essentially, the small dose improves oral tolerance, which appears to systemically reduce the reactivity of your immune system to your own collagen.

This is completely different than what hydrolyzed collagen is for, which is to provide a substrate for actually tissue synthesis.

One look at the dosage (10-40mg usually) of UC-II  will allow you to see that it cannot provide any real substrate for collagen synthesis, and that it is used as, to borrow a term, a homeopathic remedy. Exposure to small amounts of this stuff appears to reduce the immune response.

Therefore, it would stand to reason that you could combine the two in a joint therapy nutritional program, since there are dramatically different effects.

Joshua Naterman said:

I will post updates for sure

 

I've been taking it for a few days, not nearly long enough to say much, but I have a very clear catalogue of all my little complaints It sound take 3-6 months to notice significant improvements, so we will see what happens!

 

I am using regular gelatin right now, the hydrosylate is in the mail. I will probably finish the gelatin and then move to the hydrosylate.

 

The studies examining skin collagen production noted that the hydrosylate was significantly more effective, but that the gelatin also increased collagen synthesis.

 

Other things that could be considered:

 

• PHARMACEUTICAL GRADE L-proline (apparently the sole precurser to the rate-limiting intermediate material in our natural collagen production)
• PHARMACEUTICAL GRADE Chondrointin Sulfate (the only one I have had time to actively review research on)
• PHARMACEUTICAL GRADE Glucosamine Sulfate
• PHARMACEUTICAL GRADE MSM

Only the pharmaceutical grade chondrointin was shown definitively to have a positive effect. This is actually very affordable from NutraBio.com, as are the other three. 500g powder form is cheap, and will last for ~500 doses, or nearly a year if taken twice a day. That's a serious bargain.

 

I have absolutely no idea if there is any additive effect between these, I haven't even looked (yet, it's finals week after all, and I have to pretend to study so that I feel somewhat good about getting A's) to see if research on such specific combinations exists. All of this is stuff I will probably try to study in med school if it does not already exist.

Any updates?   Very curious about this thread.   Still nothing clinically proven as far as I know.

"Gelatin, stress, longevity" by Ray Peat is a very interesting article.

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/gelatin.shtml

I've been using collagen hydrolysate for a while now.  I do think it's a very good point that traditionally people have consumed the whole animal, and intakes of collagen rich foods were historically much higher than they are now in modern civilized societies.  

Is that proof of anything?  No.  Just because people have eaten it for a long time doesn't mean it's healthy.  But other people's testimonials and the fact that it makes sense that our bodies could use it as building blocks for repair and maintenance of joints and connective tissues is enough for me, and I'm going to keep using it regularly. 

I think its dangerous to consider using gelatin as a primary protein source as the author states. Amino acids are deemed essential not by their contribution to growth as stated but by whether they are need to come from one's diet. People have died on gelatin diets that were advertised as protein shakes because they were missing EAA required to sustain life.

When bodily protein is broken down not much EAA are left. So some gelatin is fine and increases satity as well as complete protein but the irony is that you can die of starvation on a full belly!

Mixed source protein powders will add up to 25% gelatin (based on studies) to reduce cost without sacrificing much quality. Certainly that would be a common sense guide to an upper limit.