Started by Tyler Gibson, April 16, 2013 · 25 Replies · 8,416 Views
I post this as a response to all the posts there have been asking if it's possible to pursue GST as someone who is tall, heavy, or both. I know his form is less than perfect, but his elbows look locked and I think if he dedicated the time he could achieve a decent cross. My point is that even very heavy athletes can achieve advanced GST elements. The athlete is John Schlecht and I'm not sure of his height.
Definitely not locked elbows, so can't call it a cross (though most people won't care in the general public), but that's still awesome.
Yes, and there are other factors making the movement he performs easier than a "real" cross. It's still very impressive for someone who weighs about twice as much as an average gymnast.
Fairly close. Bert Gerardi was 255lbs when he could do it back YEARS ago.
Notice that his palms end up going behind one, which makes it easier than if they were directly out to his side. And his elbows are bent, slight enough. That would be a lot of pressure on his elbows if he didn't. Fortunately, he is as strong as a gorilla.
Like I said, it's definitely less than perfect form, but I was still impressed. If he can do this at nearly 300lbs, I don't think I have any excuses at 180. I haven't seen footage but I've read that this same athlete also uses front lever training in his back development. I read somewhere he can do a full front lever. I'm sure his form isn't perfect there either, but still impressive for a man that size.
If you take a look at his other videos, he has a pretty solid back lever, and he's pretty far along in maltese training as well.
A couple of years ago there was a forum member with quite a high BW - and strong in skills. Orteg - was that the name?
I weigh less than half his bodyweight and cant do one 
lol
Hari_Seldon said:If you take a look at his other videos, he has a pretty solid back lever, and he's pretty far along in maltese training as well.
I disagree. His elbows are bent, and they bend even more as he leans forther forward and gets tired... back is arched... He's not even close to a true maltese.
He's strong as hell, no doubt about that, but his maltese isn't a gymnastic maltese. he loses straight arms pretty early in the lean forward out of the support, and that just shows that he is pushing himself farther than he really should at the moment.
His back lever is palms up... It looks cool, and at least his arms are straight, but I'd be much more impressed with palms down. I did palms up no problem on day one, but palms down crushed me for months.
I'm not trying to knock the guy's bent arm strength, I mean he's clearly a beast, but this is a gymnastic forum, and we kind of need to look at things from a gymnastic perspective and hold him to the same standards as we hold ourselves, in terms of whether or not he has accomplished a certain skill or not.
Dr. Durden said:A couple of years ago there was a forum member with quite a high BW - and strong in skills. Orteg - was that the name?
Ortprod, I believe.
Joshua Naterman said:I disagree. His elbows are bent, and they bend even more as he leans forther forward and gets tired... back is arched... He's not even close to a true maltese.
Yes, just as with the cross, he has some pretty big issues to work out. Still, he's much further along than most people on here.
I would not at all say that he can perform a maltese. But I am impressed by his progress.
Hari_Seldon said:Yes, just as with the cross, he has some pretty big issues to work out. Still, he's much further along than most people on here.
Unfortunately, he can't move forward much more, because he has no straight arm conditioning. He'll have to start exactly where all the rest of our total beginners are on the straight arm work.
Can we really call that progress? I could do bent arm straddle planches a few years ago, but did that help me with straight arm work? Not one bit. So, was I really far along in planche? No, I wasn't.
Strength does not always mean progress.
Joshua Naterman said:Ortprod, I believe.
Thx! What happen to him?
Impressive pressing strength!
Joshua Naterman said:Unfortunately, he can't move forward much more, because he has no straight arm conditioning. He'll have to start exactly where all the rest of our total beginners are on the straight arm work.
Can we really call that progress? I could do bent arm straddle planches a few years ago, but did that help me with straight arm work? Not one bit. So, was I really far along in planche? No, I wasn't.
Strength does not always mean progress.
To be perfectly honest, I have no experience with attempting to "straighten out" a bent-arm skill into a straight-arm one. Why does a maltese with elbows at 170 degrees not carry over to one with the elbows at 180 degrees (i.e. fully extended) ? It seems to me that the stress on the joints should be almost equal in both cases - is this not true?
I'm pretty sure the stress on the elbows goes up a lot once you are no longer able to compensate for weaker elbow joints with muscular activation. I have no data on this though.
Hari_Seldon said:To be perfectly honest, I have no experience with attempting to "straighten out" a bent-arm skill into a straight-arm one. Why does a maltese with elbows at 170 degrees not carry over to one with the elbows at 180 degrees (i.e. fully extended) ? It seems to me that the stress on the joints should be almost equal in both cases - is this not true?
The difference is the length of the musculotendinous tissues, and the integrity of the ligaments and tissues. It takes time for everything to adjust itself so that there isn't excessive passive tension on the tissues. There's a big difference between straight arm and almost straight arm, but you won't be able how much to tell if you've always done true straight arm.
Muscle fiber recruitment goes up, as can easily be seen on EMG, for a variety of reasons (length tension curves and kinematics + kinetics); and there is more stress on the ligaments, both of which can lead to tissue damage if you have not taken the time to start training the tissues the right way.
I could hold a cross with bent arms around 2-3 years ago, and my elbows would have been permanently ruined if I had tried to do that with straight arms. I couldn't even lower past 60 degrees.
You might have met Blake at Nationals, he was there with Daniel. He tried to do this (extend bent arms into straight) with maltese, and it didn't work. Daniel can provide more details if he wants, he was there for much more of the training.
The only time this ever worked for me was with advanced frog stand from BtGB, and it was very slow going. I would have been, and ended up being, much better off with planche leans, once I learned the right way to do them.
Hari_Seldon said:To be perfectly honest, I have no experience with attempting to "straighten out" a bent-arm skill into a straight-arm one. Why does a maltese with elbows at 170 degrees not carry over to one with the elbows at 180 degrees (i.e. fully extended) ? It seems to me that the stress on the joints should be almost equal in both cases - is this not true?
Unfortunately, no it is not true. Usually learning the skill with bent arms and then later attempting to straighten the arms results in a severely injured elbow.
There are no short cuts.
Yours in Fitness,
Coach Sommer
Can somebody please elaborate on (or point me to the thread on) what technically is happening that makes bent arm training so fundamentally different with little carryover?
- Chris
chobbs said:Can somebody please elaborate on (or point me to the thread on) what technically is happening that makes bent arm training so fundamentally different with little carryover?
- Chris
Read two posts up...
Daniel Burnham said:Read two posts up...
Read it. Just not really following how the change in joint angle affects the ligaments so drastically. I get that one wouldn't have strength in that range having not trained it - but how would that be different than somebody who has only done partial squats for example?
- Chris
EDIT: Found a thread going in to some details: https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/topic/2400-why-bent-arm-strength-doesnt-translate-to-straight-arm/'>Why bent arm strength doesn't translate to straight arm?
I have a question regarding straight arm isometrics. Lets say im holding a planche lean with hands backwards. My arms go past 180 degrees, to like 190 (maybe less i didnt measure it lol). Do i need to fight back with my biceps, or just relax that joint and use my shoulders? Because if i fight back with my biceps, i feel my arms are not 100% straight. On the other side, if i relax my arm and let it stay straight i feel i will rip off my elbow joint in two.
How do i make sure im training straight arm correctly? thanks in advance!!
Joshua Naterman said:The difference is the length of the musculotendinous tissues, and the integrity of the ligaments and tissues. It takes time for everything to adjust itself so that there isn't excessive passive tension on the tissues. There's a big difference between straight arm and almost straight arm, but you won't be able how much to tell if you've always done true straight arm.
Muscle fiber recruitment goes up, as can easily be seen on EMG, for a variety of reasons (length tension curves and kinematics + kinetics); and there is more stress on the ligaments, both of which can lead to tissue damage if you have not taken the time to start training the tissues the right way.
I could hold a cross with bent arms around 2-3 years ago, and my elbows would have been permanently ruined if I had tried to do that with straight arms. I couldn't even lower past 60 degrees.
You might have met Blake at Nationals, he was there with Daniel. He tried to do this (extend bent arms into straight) with maltese, and it didn't work. Daniel can provide more details if he wants, he was there for much more of the training.
The only time this ever worked for me was with advanced frog stand from BtGB, and it was very slow going. I would have been, and ended up being, much better off with planche leans, once I learned the right way to do them.
That makes sense. Thanks for the info. Unfortunately I didn't get to meet Blake or Daniel. I did see a lot of bent-arm crosses and at least one bent-arm maltese, though 
Coach Sommer said:Unfortunately, no it is not true. Usually learning the skill with bent arms and then later attempting to straighten the arms results in a severely injured elbow.
There are no short cuts.
Yours in Fitness,
Coach Sommer
Good to know. Thanks for the confirmation.
ZRX38 said:I have a question regarding straight arm isometrics. Lets say im holding a planche lean with hands backwards. My arms go past 180 degrees, to like 190 (maybe less i didnt measure it lol). Do i need to fight back with my biceps, or just relax that joint and use my shoulders? Because if i fight back with my biceps, i feel my arms are not 100% straight. On the other side, if i relax my arm and let it stay straight i feel i will rip off my elbow joint in two.
How do i make sure im training straight arm correctly? thanks in advance!!
"Straight-arm" is a bit of a misnomer. What's important really is that your elbow is fully extended. If your elbow extends beyond 180 degrees, that's fine.
Thanks for the response. I still have some doubts. When i have my arm fully extended (past 180 degrees), in order to keep it that way i have to relax the joint. If i start using my biceps, my arms are no longer 100% fully extended. Coach sommer once said that almost straight is still bent arm thats why im in doubt.
ZRX38 said:Thanks for the response. I still have some doubts. When i have my arm fully extended (past 180 degrees), in order to keep it that way i have to relax the joint. If i start using my biceps, my arms are no longer 100% fully extended. Coach sommer once said that almost straight is still bent arm thats why im in doubt.
See here:
The athlete's elbows are extended beyond 180 degrees.
ZRX38 said:Thanks for the response. I still have some doubts. When i have my arm fully extended (past 180 degrees), in order to keep it that way i have to relax the joint. If i start using my biceps, my arms are no longer 100% fully extended. Coach sommer once said that almost straight is still bent arm thats why im in doubt.
In addition to the video above, if you watch some ring routines from the olympics you'll see a lot of athletes with varying degrees of hyperextension in the elbow. As Hari Seldon said, the important part is that your elbows are fully extended.
Edit: Fully extended, not flexed.
adidashred said:In addition to the video above, if you watch some ring routines from the olympics you'll see a lot of athletes with varying degrees of hyperextension in the elbow. As Hari Seldon said, the important part is that your elbows are fully flexed.
Fully extended. Flexion is the opposite: it's when you draw your hand towards your chest.