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Started by Tomas Johansson, April 9, 2013 · 22 Replies · 573 Views
When working an exercise should you stop the set when the form is no longer 100 percent?
Is a slower tempo also a form fail?
For instance, working push ups, my tempo gets slower when I get tired and I start to grind but may be able to keep the correct body position, should I continue or consider it a fail?
I believe one should always stop set when form breaks. About tempo I think its ok when last few reps are slower, but by no means 10 second grinders. If you slow considerably I would stop there as well.
IMO the moment you can no longer maintain tempo you are pushing into the realm of effort and should stop the set - ideally stop before hitting that point. If you push further you will notice that you sacrifice your breathing to complete another few reps, push further and you sacrifice your form for a few more reps, push further and you hit failure. Most of us know that hitting failure isn't conducive to strength gains and will avoid it, but why not avoid the other elements of effort as well?
The exception to the form break rule would be anything where the broken form was a skill based issue - example, losing balance on the tuck-up. As long as it wasn't a fatigue issue causing the form break I think it is fine to continue the set.
- Chris
chobbs said:IMO the moment you can no longer maintain tempo you are pushing into the realm of effort and should stop the set - ideally stop before hitting that point.
This seems silly. Effort is required to complete these exercises correctly. This isn't GTG... I have to work hard on every one of my current elements - especially near the end of the sets.
If during the last few reps of the sets of your mastery attempt you lose tempo, are shaking wildly, and of course if you lose good form then you will need to try again to attempt mastery at a later date, but for all other purposes unless form has been compromised I say work through your set - with breaks necessary to keep form.
For example - yesterday was my first day attempting 4x15 pushups. The previous week I was able to complete 4x12 pushups without issue, but during the last two sets of this workout for whatever reason I could only perform 8 reps initially with proper form. I didn't just stop my set and call it at 8 though. I sat back on my knees, took 5 or 6 deep breaths and then finished my sets with proper form. It was a grind, but I'm pushing into new rep territory - my body will adjust to the new level of effort required soon enough.
Cannister said:This seems silly. Effort is required to complete these exercises correctly. This isn't GTG... I have to work hard on every one of my current elements - especially near the end of the sets.
Obviously there will be effort to perform the movement. I am speaking about when then necessary effort changes. At that point you are pushing your body beyond where it is currently capable. How far one pushes is a personal choice. I believe there will be better results over the longer term if one refrains from pushing past the initial effort required to perform the movement.
Cannister said:If during the last few reps of the sets of your mastery attempt you lose tempo, are shaking wildly, and of course if you lose good form then you will need to try again to attempt mastery at a later date, but for all other purposes unless form has been compromised I say work through your set - with breaks necessary to keep form.
Your described behavior didn't so much differ from my suggestion. You terminated the set as well and then came back to it after a break. The only difference is in where you terminated it. I would suggest terminating it slightly earlier, at the point at which you lose tempo. Try it, you may find completing the required reps much easier and more productive than pushing harder initially and having progressively shorter subsequent sets.
- Chris
chobbs said:Obviously there will be effort to perform the movement. I am speaking about when then necessary effort changes. At that point you are pushing your body beyond where it is currently capable. How far one pushes is a personal choice. I believe there will be better results over the longer term if one refrains from pushing past the initial effort required to perform the movement.
Your described behavior didn't so much differ from my suggestion. You terminated the set as well and then came back to it after a break. The only difference is in where you terminated it. I would suggest terminating it slightly earlier, at the point at which you lose tempo. Try it, you may find completing the required reps much easier and more productive than pushing harder initially and having progressively shorter subsequent sets.
- Chris
My uneducated guess is to think that this strategy would be better for developing more sets of fewer reps. If this was the better strategy to take I would think that Coach Sommer would have prescribed 15x5 instead of 5x15. I think that something important is gained by working through those last few difficult reps.
I had exactly the same experience as Cannister on 4x15 pushups. I "rested" a bit on the top of the pushup on the last reps of the last 2 sets.
I think it may vary, but for me I thinking grinding will be more productive than resetting the cycle, sometimes you have to tough it out.
The really important thing is being honest about mastery sets. I think mastery sets should have minimal "grinding" in them.
Cannister said:My uneducated guess is to think that this strategy would be better for developing more sets of fewer reps. If this was the better strategy to take I would think that Coach Sommer would have prescribed 15x5 instead of 5x15. I think that something important is gained by working through those last few difficult reps.
I disagree that the approach is only valid for building low reps, having used it myself and with others I can say with certainty you can build higher reps with this approach. Thus far I have had very good progress building up to higher reps which for me has always been a weakness.
I would agree that 15x5 is not the same as 5x15 though. However, if one can only complete 5 reps before losing tempo I would suggest they really shouldn't be working much beyond that point - especially 3x beyond that point! Also, as in your example, the strategy wasn't applicable to every set you did. It was only needed at the end.
Let us say you hit 10 reps on your last set of 15. Specifically, that is where you would normally stop and take a break as that is where form broke down, then you needed two sets to get those last 5 reps (a set of 3 and a set of 2). My suggestion, is that on that last set you stop at 8 reps instead of 10 reps. The likelhood of being able to finish the last 7 reps w/o taking another break is much higher as you stopped further back from your edge.
Obviously, to hit mastery you need to complete the set straight through, but while working towards it I am of the opinion that keeping away from your edge will allow better recovery and faster progress than if that edge is constantly pushed. If you have the recovery capacity then this may be moot, but what if a different approach could yield better progress?
There is a lot more I could say on this topic, and at some point I will put something more comprehensive together explaining why I am approaching things slightly differently than some folks here. But, if you believe you have to "push" through whatever in order to make gains I encourage you to question that view and put a different approach to the test.
- Chris
chobbs said:-words about reps-
You make a good argument.
My only concern with this method is how does one know if their "edge" is actually farther along then they thought if only they continued through a bit of burn. Sometimes I surprise myself by just working until I'm either done or can't work anymore (with proper form). How would I know to move onto doing that 9th rep if I'm worried about getting too close to my limit?
It seems like it gives you one more possible excuse to stop trying - and I find that if I'm sitting there thinking "should I stop soon?" makes me much more likely to stop early instead of working harder to continue with proper form when it becomes difficult yet still possible.
Cannister said:My only concern with this method is how does one know if their "edge" is actually farther along then they thought if only they continued through a bit of burn. Sometimes I surprise myself by just working until I'm either done or can't work anymore (with proper form). How would I know to move onto doing that 9th rep if I'm worried about getting too close to my limit?
Pushing to your edge is definitely one way to find it. 
Joking aside, I get what you are saying and I worked like that for years. I am not saying it won't or can't work, obviously that is absurd since plenty of folks work that way and progress. But, at a certain point I stopped being able to progress with that approach.
Think about it like this - in your scenario, you are using form breaking down as the marker. Today it is 8 reps, next session might be 10 reps, or it might be only 6 reps that day because of a crappy day at work/school or other life stressors. Either way if the approach is followed consistently it respects where your body is at for that given moment, which is a good thing.
The problem I have with letting when form falters be your guide though is there are many of us who tell ourselves little lies to keep going. I personally blame high school athletics for beating this futher into us. I can find any number of ways to cheat at a movement and very little of that is conscious. So what ends up happening is I am not consistent with my assessment of my form breaking down and some days I stop at a reasonable point and others I push a bit too close to my edge and I find recovering from that session to be difficult.
Instead, I choose to terminate my set when tempo falters. Like your scenario, I may only get 6 reps, but next session it might be 8, or it might be 4. Exactly the same honoring of where my body is at that day the only difference is I didn't push as far into my recovery ability and it is an easier marker to observe. Granted I didn't get as many reps as your approach, but the reps I did get represented what I was capable of demonstrating with mastery. Ultimately we are headed to the same place, example 15 reps at the mastery level tempo/form/etc.. The difference is that my sessions are all easy whereas yours can turn into a struggle depending on how far your push and how many lies you tell yourself about your form on that journey.
Of course, it is possible you are very strict and consistent with your form observations, and perhaps your life is such that the extra stress of pushing hard during your practice isn't too much for you to recover from. But, I am sure there are others out there in my situation and perhaps this approach/mindset will help them out. I can say having approached my training from both styles, and even more extreme push yourself/others type mentatility in my earlier days, that I much prefer the "easy" approach to training. If at some point that approach fails me then I know I can push a little harder - what happens when you are already pushing hard and not getting anywhere? I struggled for years with that dilemma and it ain't fun.
- Chris
I've had the same issue with 4 x 15 pushups this week, and like Cannister, I just pushed through it on the final set after taking a few seconds to rest on my knees. I'm a little sore today (for the first time since starting F1), and though I don't mind, I want to make sure this is the right way to go. My plan was to keep doing it this way and then to repeat this mini-cycle until I achieve mastery.
This discussion above is interesting, but I was wondering if coach or one of his athletes could chime in regarding what he would suggest. This *is* his program after all, and I want to make sure I'm following it appropriately.
M
Bad form is not acceptable. When form breaks stop or you start to learn bad habits.
If you can maintain form with the slower pace then keep going, you're not done yet.
I think if you have to stop even for a few seconds to rest we cannot call it a set of 15. It has become a ret pause set. I did push ups today 15,15,9 and 9. If I rested 5-10 seconds I could have made the 15. I was working very hard by the last few reps. 4 weeks ago I got stuck at 15,15,7 and 5. This is frustratingly slow progress for me. I was so tempted to grind out the last reps to 15 so I can move to the next level, but it is not mastery.
I just need to be patient and hopefully in 4 weeks I will get 4x15 and then 5x15.
Ego is always fighting in us. But we should stick to our goal, to master each excersise. I've found that when i cheat myself, i'm stalling in the excersise. For example, rigth now I'm working on FL PE1 and I can lay with contracted ABS for entire 5x60s but there's a problem with my form, because my spine is straigthening rather than being flexed for body rocks when i'm tired. Right now more time is used with perfect form only, when i'm in doubt, one body rock from PE2 is done and then i know if the form is perfect. If not... Sorry boss, no cheating! Last session - 60/30/30/28/26 seconds with total perfection.
Sometimes i'm even checking my progress in next PE. I'm still at PE2 in HBP and couldn't even do one PE3, right now i'm at 2 reps! And i can do a lot of FL Body rocks! And i can smash all SLS progressions, but i'm working on deep cossack position because it's fun. With sPL i'm still at PE1, shoulder shrugs are awesome but, swivel hips are still on my way. But we all know that we must earn the right to have the gymnastic strength! Go for it brothers, figth with your ego.
Master the excersises. Master gymnastic strength. Master your life!
Sry for my English, it's not my native language but i'm trying to add something to the thread 
Mark Collins said:I think if you have to stop even for a few seconds to rest we cannot call it a set of 15. It has become a ret pause set. I did push ups today 15,15,9 and 9. If I rested 5-10 seconds I could have made the 15. I was working very hard by the last few reps. 4 weeks ago I got stuck at 15,15,7 and 5. This is frustratingly slow progress for me. I was so tempted to grind out the last reps to 15 so I can move to the next level, but it is not mastery.
I just need to be patient and hopefully in 4 weeks I will get 4x15 and then 5x15.
Mark we're not talking about mastery here. We're talking about what to do when you fail to complete a set in one shot during a workout. Do you pause, rest a few seconds, and do the last few sets? Or do you stop like you did.
Which one is more likely to get you to mastery level ability faster? That is the question.
For me personally, grinding out the last reps maybe with reduced tempo and curse words works out better. As long as form is ok. I think pushups in particular is one of those things that responds well to volume.
As long as mastery is done with good standards and clean language I think we're doing ok according to the course.
dritar said:
As long as mastery is done with good standards and clean language I think we're doing ok according to the course.
Haha 
Canister- in that case it is most likely an individual thing. I know the if I push close to failure I need more recovery. If I stop when my form breaks I can train more often. I think this is why exercise is so much fun, trying to work out what is best for ourselves. It is like an ongoing science experiment.
If your tempo slows a bit, that's OK so long as you are able to maintain correct form. If your form breaks or your tempo is excessively fast, you should not count the rep.
Interesting discussion.
I think my approach is that while it's ok that I suffer, form mustn't. It's the space between my starting to suffer and the reps starting to suffer where I feel I'm improving my endurance. When form breaks down, like Cannister, I'll pause for just long enough to finish the set.
Would be very interesting to know which approach is more effective. If my approach is less effective, why do the suffering bit?
Ravn said:
Would be very interesting to know which approach is more effective. If my approach is less effective, why do the suffering bit?
My take on the issue is that towards the end of the 12 week cycle you should be struggling, it's all part of the programming. There are fluctuation cycles of over and under loading. If the goal was to be able to do 5x10-15 with no difficulty, and perfect tempo I think the cycles for each exercise would be 6 months long, not 3.
In my mind that allows for slight alterations in tempo and very brief pauses even. You shouldn't stop completely, and form should be maintained, but at the high rep/time ranges you should be fighting for it.
train a new move->perfect your form->build to overload->deload and start a new move
I'm 37, got te kids, doing a phd, so medium busy.
A bit of suffering builds character - That doesn't mean that one should become obsessed with suffering as much as possible, IMO.
The funny thing about this endurance building is that when testing HBP/PE2, I failed at rep 10 / fifth set - And was broken for a week afterwards. Now I tend to fail earlier, at the very end of the fourth set, and somewhere in the middle of the fifth set as well. However, i'm not sore at all the following days.
Well, back to another micro cycle of pushups...