Can excessive flexibility hurt your jumping or kicking power?

The conversation copied below from another thread asked if flexibility could sometimes be excessive and detrimental to jumping... I've had this conversation before in relation with kicking power: while some argued that flexibility was helpful in completely inhibiting the antagonist resistance, others were of the idea that a certain degree of stiffness allowed to "store energy" in the stretched tissues to be violently released, hence increasing the power generated.

I am of two minds on this question, and would really love to hear a debate between members of the community, or maybe a final answer from someone in the know.

acrobatlegend said:

(...) does being that flexible (as Ricardo) hurt your tumbling power? I have a friend who is a gymnastics coach and he says that he thinks the reason he can bound so high (to do double backs and double fronts) is because he is so inflexible and can store up that tension in his legs and body. 

Hari_Seldon said:

Your friend is full of bovine fecal matter. I can do double backs, and I'm pretty close to double fronts. I have a middle split, I can touch my palms to the floor with straight legs without warming up, and I can do a pancake with my chest and stomach on the floor.  

Good tumbling comes first and foremost from good form. You also need a good amount of strength to hold your body rigid and tense your calves. There's nothing that puts your limbs through an extreme range of motion, so there's no reason why inflexibility would help. 

acrobatlegend said:

I guess I was thinking more like, a super extreme amount of flexibility being bad for tumling. Like Ricardo in the video. Would someone like him be less powerful tumbling for whatever physical reasons because of his super flexibility?

Hari_Seldon said:

I do not believe so, for the same reason stated above. Extreme flexibility may impair your joint stability near the extremes of your ROM, but tumbling, and punching in particular, does not involve any extreme ROM.

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If I remember correctly then Pavel Tsatsouline stated that you actually can get too flexible that it can make a negative impact on your sports. The example he gave was from a kickboxer who had stretched his split beyond 180° and in the result his high kick was weaker as he explained. He couldn't fully control the leg so when he kicked it was hard to stop the leg from flying away.

So in conclusion he stated that having a split of 180° ( a full split ) is enough. That is in terms of kicking and acrobatics. In powerlifting there is a much bigger negative impact when you are too flexible as in loss of strength and power.

Hope this helps

I think it would be the issue of do you really own that range of motion. It is one thing to be able to have someone or gravity put you in a split. It is another to be able to do a split between two chairs while holding a Victoria's Secret model on each leg. In one, you are able to stretch to a certain range and in the second, you are STRONG in that range.

Having an excessive deficit between your passive flexibility and active flexibility can and will make you more prone to injury.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

 Wouldn't be surprised. Many power tumbling coaches do prefer to have tumblers who have very tight shoulders. I've heard one joke that if they have a good bridge, they should go back to artistic.

 Some of the really gumby kids just do not have power. They are just loose. OTOH, occasionally you get those kids who have good flexibility and power and of course kids with good power and poor flexibility.

Yup, it's all about the tension there is in the muscles. Someone who can just flop in oversplit and whose muscles make no resistance will be pretty weak and will lack power. Someone who can oversplit but who needs to push really hard to do it has stronger and tighter muscles. The difference became very obvious to me when I had stretching sessions with contortionists. While helping them to stretch, it just felt like I was pushing a knife in warm butter, there was no resistance at all, and then at some point, they'd say "don't push more than that". They'd spend a long time into their positions, too. On the opposite, they needed to apply a lot of strength to stretch me, and often, they wouldn't be strong enough to be much help. It didn't mean that I was at my maximum range (without injuries), simply that my muscles act like much stronger "rubber bands" than theirs. And I can oversplit a little bit, but I have to have my hands in the air AND pull with my opposite muscles at the same time, otherwise I don't move. So for me, the difference is all in the strength, and the methods used to stretch.

So if you want to be flexible but powerful, do short durations stretches, and do a lot of active flexibility (PNFs!) and "tensed stretches". Don't relax into your stretches. Also, avoid stretching to the point where it doesn't stretch your muscles anymore, but stretches your ligaments. Loose ligaments aren't good for someone who's not a contortionist, and even contortionists should avoid stretching the ligaments they don't need to stretch, while training their active flexibility and their strength to make sure they stay healthy (that's what most good contortionists do).

Vagabond, what would you consider a good length of time for "short duration" stretches?

Vagabond said:

Yup, it's all about the tension there is in the muscles. Someone who can just flop in oversplit and whose muscles make no resistance will be pretty weak and will lack power. Someone who can oversplit but who needs to push really hard to do it has stronger and tighter muscles. The difference became very obvious to me when I had stretching sessions with contortionists. While helping them to stretch, it just felt like I was pushing a knife in warm butter, there was no resistance at all, and then at some point, they'd say "don't push more than that". They'd spend a long time into their positions, too. On the opposite, they needed to apply a lot of strength to stretch me, and often, they wouldn't be strong enough to be much help. It didn't mean that I was at my maximum range (without injuries), simply that my muscles act like much stronger "rubber bands" than theirs. And I can oversplit a little bit, but I have to have my hands in the air AND pull with my opposite muscles at the same time, otherwise I don't move. So for me, the difference is all in the strength, and the methods used to stretch.

So if you want to be flexible but powerful, do short durations stretches, and do a lot of active flexibility (PNFs!) and "tensed stretches". Don't relax into your stretches. Also, avoid stretching to the point where it doesn't stretch your muscles anymore, but stretches your ligaments. Loose ligaments aren't good for someone who's not a contortionist, and even contortionists should avoid stretching the ligaments they don't need to stretch, while training their active flexibility and their strength to make sure they stay healthy (that's what most good contortionists do).

Mm. Agreed. I get ass-cramps in oversplits, and i often find that I can't reach the floor if I don't engage to cramp- level. I don't need any 'strength' to get box splits though.

I don't think that (ligament stretching aside, because that's just not cricket) its the whole picture though; I believe that drawing a distinction between mobility and flexibility earlier would have helped me avoid some issues with extended relaxed stretches when I was performing. Instead I let flexibility cover the shortfall. Bad idea. Some things are harder now, but feel much more controlled

Vagabond said:

 

So if you want to be flexible but powerful, do short durations stretches, and do a lot of active flexibility (PNFs!) and "tensed stretches". Don't relax into your stretches. Also, avoid stretching to the point where it doesn't stretch your muscles anymore, but stretches your ligaments. Loose ligaments aren't good for someone who's not a contortionist, and even contortionists should avoid stretching the ligaments they don't need to stretch, while training their active flexibility and their strength to make sure they stay healthy (that's what most good contortionists do).

Let's not throw out the baby with the bath water. Relaxing into stretch is an excellent means of increasing flexibility. There is no need to worry about stretching your ligaments or becoming too loose when this is combined with strength training and active flexibility work.

Cole Dano said:

Let's not throw out the baby with the bath water. Relaxing into stretch is an excellent means of increasing flexibility. There is no need to worry about stretching your ligaments or becoming too loose when this is combined with strength training and active flexibility work.

^ This is what I was getting at but did not explicitly say in my post

4.6 million views currently on BJ Penn's Youtube video of him jumping 3 ft out of a pool.  A nice example of flexibility improving jumping ability. Coach has noted that a deficit between active and passive flexibility is dangerous so develop strength throughout your entire range of motion and enjoy the seemingly super-human benefits that result when strength and flexibility combine.