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Started by MrPuppeh, March 19, 2013 · 24 Replies · 1,767 Views
Hi !
Was wondering about the difficulity levels there. I can do parallel bar dips no problem, but i am struggling to do pseudo planche pushups.
I have not reached any of those movements in the F1 program ( I am working slowly step by step, exercise by exercise) now but Before F1 i was doing them both.
What do i lack if the PPPus are way harder for me than parallel bar dips ?
Just a little evil tweak to separate the men from the boyz 
It's to drive home the point that just because you can do PEX doesn't mean you have mastered PEX-1 unless you have actually demonstrated it 
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I am the same. I find dips really easy, but will struggle with PPP. With dips the shoulder starts in extension and ends in neutral. PPP has no shoulder extension. So they are different ranges of the shoulder. I know plenty of people who can struggle with dips, but can do push ups really well. I guess we are all different and just enjoy the exercises that do come easy.
Pseudo planche push-ups can vary substantially in difficulty depending on the degree of forward lean. I think Coach probably overlooked the difficulty of the PPP. A standard dip is definitely way easier than a PPP with the hands just about under the hips like how it's shown in the video.
maybe people hvae different strengths and weaknesses but I am sure if you got an untrained individual and taught them a dip and a hand below waist PPP they PPP would take considerably more time to master. especially seeing as it is 10 of those in f1 and only 5 dips o.0
Seems common. I can do the mastery for the dips, but couldn't get passed the PPP so that is where I started. Just think of it as building up strength/ mobility and that you will be that much more proficient at the dips when you get to them
The Wykydtron said:Seems common. I can do the mastery for the dips, but couldn't get passed the PPP so that is where I started. Just think of it as building up strength/ mobility and that you will be that much more proficient at the dips when you get to them
Actually, you may be able to bypass dips altogether if you can demonstrate mastery for each step along the way. So once you master PPP, you may be able to use one workout to demonstrate PE4 and PE4/iM, the next to demonstrate PE5 and PE5/iM, and the next to demonstrate PE6 and PE6/iM. So you may end up passing through three PE elements in a single week once you've mastered the PPP.
I'm in the same boat as you and am "thinking" this will be the case for me as well. However, one thing I've learned already is that a lot of times "thinking" and "proving" are two different things altogether!
It seems in the correct order to me. Dips to this ROM with this tempo seem to be a step up from PPP, requiring more strength out of the bottom position.
I dont think coach overlooked anything. I have mastered both and feel that dips with full ROM are harder than the PPP. Most of you are finding the opposite for a combination of the following reasons.
PPP is a novel movement for most people, while dips are commonly done even outside of GST. This means that Dips will seem easier because you have done them before and built strength in them. This is actually an imbalance from previous training.
Dips are often not done full ROM. You should go down beyond parallel. Most people I see think they are going very deep when in fact they barely move up and down. The idea that this is dangerous is similar to the the never squat deep idea and is equally wrong. The lack of ROM probably makes you feel like the movement is easy.
As an aside: If you load up on weighted dips and the weights pull you down below the ROM that you have built previously then you will get injured. If you develop the ROM gradually using a constant weight then you will be able to build strength at the extreme and avoid injury. This is one of the reasons that coach does not recommend weighted variations for beginners.
I personally do 21 PPP in warmups and 15 dips. Dips are harder.
There may be the case where someone has some anatomical reason for PPP to be much harder and this would probably be more common in taller people, but consider that an exception not the rule.
Daniel Burnham said:
PPP is a novel movement for most people, while dips are commonly done even outside of GST. This means that Dips will seem easier because you have done them before and built strength in them. This is actually an imbalance from previous training.
Very true!
Dunno, in my opinion PPP is a movement which indeed can be made harder with the more forward lean which is why it is a great exercise for beginners and intermediate alike. The more stronger you get, the toes will feel lighter and lighter. The resistance is easily more significant than with the dips. I am struggling with the mastery of PPP but I am pretty confident that I would be able to do the 10 r mastery of ring dips(and so deep that the they could be called russian dips).
To me, it feels a lot like Power to the People (briefly mentioned in BTGB). What I suspect coach might be doing is this:
I personally like this approach because it means HBP will be mastered in half the time for me at least the f1 part of it . After pe3 everything is easily mastered for me at least. I used to be one of these train push ups way to much kind of guy. Always did elbows close hands just below or around chest height didnt do dips so much but now dips are a piece of cake. I can quite easily do 15 shoulders almost to wrists dips but I can't do a single perfect form pppu with hands at waist, although I think that is because I have to do them hands facig backwards as my flexibility in my wrists isn't pod enough for hands facing forward. I guess the hands backwards significantly increases the difficulty.
Those are some good and possible reasons you mentioned Daniel, but I'm still doubtful. PPP with max lean and hands under hips puts significant torque on the shoulders and is easily more difficult then a standard full ROM dip even though it's not full body weight like a dip. It also puts a lot of stress on the elbows and bicep tendons at the top which most people new to straight arm stuff may find hard.
Personally, I first started doing dips and PPP in the same year a few years ago. I don't remember which one I did first, but I remember that I didn't do dips that often because I didn't get access to a dip station most of the time back then in my high school. I could only do a few full ROM dips when I first started and got up to about 10 reps by the last time I used a dip station at my high school. I started doing PPPs during my track practice since I got bored of doing many basic push-ups that my coach made us do everyday and I felt that PPPs were harder than dips. These PPPs were also done with poor form like arched back and not even with the hands under the hips because my body was traveling back during the concentric. Now that I know what proper form is for PPP, it's much harder than the ones I did back then and I was doing proper full dips back then too.
I just compared max lean PPPs with proper form to adv tuck planche push-ups and it even feels a bit harder than that.
So far the consensus here seems to be that PPPs are harder than dips and negative dips. Maybe we should have people here post which is harder for them and if they had a history of doing dips before starting PPPs to get a statistic. I would also think most people who posted here in the F1 forums would be doing full ROM dips.
True lean has a lot to do with the intensity of ppp. I do them at about the same lean I use to do straddle planche and it isn't terribly difficult. Putting them further back definitely amps up the difficulty which would probably make them harder than dips.
Well, I don't know if how exactly a max lean PPP maintaining proper form compares to a tempo full ROM Dip. In my opinion the PPP maybe slightly easier but I don't think a dip is twice as hard. Atleast that's why I think I'll have more trouble with the PPP mastery that with the dip mastery.
I don't see how bench dips are harder than PPP though.
I don't see the big deal it just means once you have mastered pppu you will probably have the strength to master the last 3 prrogressions which I think is pretty cool. It feels like you get a huge leap through the course personally I think the build up to the pppu is plenty of prep to get mastery of them within the 3 months allocated so instead I 6 months of f1 hbp ill be done I half the time.
PPP may be harder than dips, but not because it requires more strength from the same muscles. Dips isolate the triceps much more heavily, whereas PPP's involve more chest. Mastering PPP is not a guarantee that you will be able to breeze through the dip progressions.
As to why dips may come after PPP's: it may be as simple as Xiaopeng's being a prerequisite for good/safe ROM in dips.
For myself, the dips are harder than the PPP. I just filmed these dips and PPPs here in my room. Normally there is slightly more lean in my PPP but I am not at the tumbling gym. There I always use a mirror to easily check my form and ensure I am leaning enough.
I feel the dips more in triceps and the front of my shoulders. Not a huge difference, but a noticeable one.
it looks like you don't lock your elbows in dips, and PPP in my opinion are poorly executed (piking, limited ROM)
Yes, the PPP are barely half ROM. Look at the video in F1, the athlete is in full contact with the floor and has a straight body line.
Zach Armijo said:I think that is what people are getting hung up on. It isn't all about the difficulty of strength. Rather full ROM dips puts more stress on the shoulders than a PPP.
I think this is the key, these are prep elements after all. Bench dips are notorious shoulder killers if you have poor mobility.
spyro7800 said:it looks like you don't lock your elbows in dips, and PPP in my opinion are poorly executed (piking, limited ROM)
My elbows are locked out. My arms can only extend to roughly 163 degrees as measured by a doctor.
Zach Armijo said:... It isn't all about the difficulty of strength ... Rather full ROM dips puts more stress on the shoulders than a PPP. PPP is about proper execution of form and correct activation all with a constant forward lean ... Take Korean dips for example. The vast majority of the community will yet again get stuck there. Not because of the strength required, but the ROM you are going through ... You have to remember that strength, mobility and ROM are being progressed.
Great answer.
Yours in Fitness,
Coach Sommer