Pre and Post Workout nutrition

Hi all,

I have read a bit of info and noticed there is a lot of discussion on here about what to consume for pre and post workout nutrition. I read one of Ido's previous posts that had a meal plan where the post workout shake consisted of whey protein isolate, glycine and glutamine so I did a bit of reading on this. It seems many athletes particularly those concerned with gaining muscle mass use these products as well as other athletes.

I was wondering whether since a gymnast sticks mainly to a 3-5 rep range where the actual muscles aren't stressed as much as with more bodybuilding loading parameters whether they need to consume the exact same or quantity of products as athletes who develop more muscle mass as a more primary goal. I remember Charles Poliquin saying that he hooks some of his athletes to an IV that contains very high dosages of vitamin C among other substances for post workout. This is clearly a pretty serious part of his methods.

Maybe Ido in particular and others could share their thoughts on the subject or offer some recommended reading.

Many thanks.

If I remember right I.V. feeding is a doping.

My post workout:

30g of protein/5og of carbohydrates/and extra added amino acids and other extracts/ 45 min. after again the same procedure

Hooking up to an IV sounds pretty extreme! :shock:

The idea is to combat oxidative stress, but if you take vitamin C and antioxidants early enough, maybe 1/2 hr. before working out, it should be in your system when you need it.

Optimal carb intake PWO will depend on the number of repetitions performed, and also on the muscle mass used. I think Ido has posted a guide from Coach Poliquin about this on the forum.

In a recent seminar I attended, Poliquin stressed the importance of PWO nutrition following strictly neural, low volume workouts. Since these types of workouts will still jack up cortisol levels, boosting insulin will improve the testosterone to cortisol ratio. You may want to consider adding taurine and 500mg magnesium to your PWO drink, as it will reduce the excitability of the nervous system. Keeping the body alkalized during the workout with a green drink may help, as well.

I have been using Vit. C and BCAA before & during workouts, then following the workout with a green drink/glutamine/egg white protein/BCAA shake + magnesium.

Hello, Scotty,

Excelent recommendations for the advanced athlete.

Ido.

Hi guys,

Many thanks for the info. Scotty that was very interesting and I have begun to read up on those guidelines. I have found some good info and indeed Poliquin has noted in the past that many track and field athletes are deficient in taurine and magnesium due to their high velocity throws and as soon as this was corrected, performance increased.

When using supplements to gain an advantage for athletes, is it really quite necessary to exceed the recommended daily allowances (RDA's) that is mentioned on food packaging etc or is this mainly dependent on the level of the athlete?

Just as a very general question does anyone think that there are certain supplements that are essential that people should take for example many many people are deficient in zinc and are there supplements that people who engage in high intensity exercise such as Gymnastic Strength Training™ should be taking no matter what level they are?

Another thought is that when for example following Coach Sommer's 8-12 week steady state cycle, as you adapt, would the quantity of supplements used decrease?

Thankyou .

Scotty Hagnas said:

I think Ido has posted a guide from Coach Poliquin about this on the forum.

Can you provide a link to this post because I couldn't find it and I'm sure many people are interested.

Scotty Hagnas said:

I have been using Vit. C and BCAA before & during workouts, then following the workout with a green drink/glutamine/egg white protein/BCAA shake + magnesium.

What are the effects of BCAA during a PWO shake.

Also, your a big advocate of paleo eating right? I have your cook book i think. So would you still consider yourself a paleo eater even with the pwo shake like you just described?

gymrob said:

Just as a very general question does anyone think that there are certain supplements that are essential that people should take for example many many people are deficient in zinc and are there supplements that people who engage in high intensity exercise such as Gymnastic Strength Training™ should be taking no matter what level they are?

Another thought is that when for example following Coach Sommer's 8-12 week steady state cycle, as you adapt, would the quantity of supplements used decrease?

Interested in finding out more about this as well, because I am not a high level gymnast and will be starting a steady state gymnastics cycle soon.

Well I can answer one of your questions Chris, the point of BCAA for either post or pre workout is for the amino acids, the same goes for protein. But the good thing about BCAAs is that they are readily available amino acids rather than proteins, meaning that your body doesn't need to break them down to amino acids because they are already amino acids. Another thing is you know what you are getting, some companies label their protein and tell you how much of each amino acid is in there or they give you amino acids your body can synthesize(created) by its self, BCAAs come with certain essential amino acids that your body cannot create but needs from outside sources.

Sorry to stretch this explanation out, hope it helped.

Happy New Year, all!

Here is the PWO carb thread:

http://gymnasticbodies.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=883&start=30

Chris - Yes, I am a big advocate of eating Paleo. However, I do occasionally take advantage of new information to accelerate recovery. The shake I've been using, while not being something you could exactly find in the wild, still avoids known trouble foods like grains, dairy, and legumes. I keep my carbs low during the winter, so this shake allows me to still replenish muscle glycogen efficiently w/o the carb intake. At other times of the year, I'll use a solid meal of lean meat, root veggies, and greens.

Gymrob- The RDA will not be sufficient for hard training athletes. The RDA is essentially the amount needed to avoid deficiency, and this is not even taking in to account bodyweight, activity levels, age, etc. Meeting the RDA is kind of like passing school by getting a D-. Optimal levels will often be far higher. Unfortunately, even a nutrient dense Paleo diet isn't likely to make up the difference to get you where you need to be. Soil depletion leaves even organic produce well below natural levels of nutrients, plus almost all of us have a nutrient debt that needs to be paid back. What I mean by this is: though we might now eat a great diet, almost all of us have eaten in a typical Western fashion for most of our lives. We know that a grain based diet will prevent proper absorption of many minerals, for example. This will mean that as we start eating properly, our bank account, or whole body stores of various minerals, is low. Now, add to this further mineral depletion from hard training. Today's whole foods will simply not be enough to make up for the deficiency.

Zinc and magnesium are probably the most common mineral deficiencies in the power athlete, but it is best to be tested first to know for sure. I do some basic mineral assessments with my clients, and if needed we do a complete metabolic profile thru a partner ND. Here is one such test: http://www.metametrix.com/content/DirectoryOfServices/0291OrganixBasic-Urine

Scotty Hagnas said:

Chris - Yes, I am a big advocate of eating Paleo. However, I do occasionally take advantage of new information to accelerate recovery. The shake I've been using, while not being something you could exactly find in the wild, still avoids known trouble foods like grains, dairy, and legumes. I keep my carbs low during the winter, so this shake allows me to still replenish muscle glycogen efficiently w/o the carb intake. At other times of the year, I'll use a solid meal of lean meat, root veggies, and greens.

Thanks for the link. I never knew that, depending on reps in a workout, pwo carbs should be changed.

And, whats a green drink...like green tea? Or a drink made from juiced veggies and stuff?

Also, Ido, would you mind letting us all in on what you're post workout shake/meal looks like?

Right now I use the Muscle Provider (chocolate is GREAT). I would say pick one, stick with it and see how your body responds. One thing about the tablets, I tried them and I needed to take about 20 a day (thats on work and rest days) for them to have any noticeable effect (feeling wise). So if you get the tablets I took some in the morning, put some in my lunch for work/school, and then some before and after my workout. Honestly it was a lot of work just to keep up with all the tablet taking. :? So, I would say go with the powder just for convenience unless you are used to taking supplement packs throughout the day. With the Muscle Provider I either do 30-60 min pre workout with a snack or post workout, and then a shake the morning after. I have tried several different brands, like GNC 100% Whey and I like the Beverly stuff a lot better.

http://www.bulknutrition.com/?products_id=436

http://www.bulknutrition.com/?products_id=430

Scotty,

Many thanks for that info that was really interesting. Just today I have begun to supplement with zinc since many many people are deficient as you said. Almost all of Poliquin's athletes he first tests show up as deficient I remember reading.

I'm very new to the whole idea of nutrition to improve performance and was wondering whether there are any particular articles/ websites that are particularly good. I know many people read a lot of information by Poliquin, Mauro di pasquale etc but it's just that it's hard to distinguish what is being mainly aimed at more body builders and what is being aimed at strength athletes. So when strength training am I right in saying that one of the main factors to be taken into consideration is the resulting hormones from training such as cortisol? Also should it really be a concern for people such as myself who are beginner/ intermediate (advanced tuck planche etc sort of level).

Many thanks.

A green drink is is made from vegetables, or sometimes fruits. Basically a powder you mix into your shakes, or take with meals if your veggie intake is low.

Make sure the brand you use is grain and legume free, and does not contain alfalfa.

Scotty Hagnas said:

A green drink is is made from vegetables, or sometimes fruits. Basically a powder you mix into your shakes, or take with meals if your veggie intake is low.

Make sure the brand you use is grain and legume free, and does not contain alfalfa.

Sounds kinda gross...but I'll probably try it once anyway.

Scotty Hagnas said:

Make sure the brand you use is grain and legume free, and does not contain alfalfa.

What's the problem with alfalfa? I've seen many green drinks that contain alfalfa or chlorophyl extracted from it and didn't know about any cons so far.

Romulo-

Alfalfa may be allergenic to many individuals, or you may develop a sensitivity with regular use. Also, alfalfa contains phytoestrogens similar to soy products. Another area of possible concern is that the L-canavanine content of alfalfa may lead to systemic lupus erythematosus (SLE)-type auto-immune reactions.

Thanks Scotty, but again I'm a bit surprised with the reference to phytoestrogens and soy products. Here in Japan there's a great consumption of soy beans, miso soup, tofu, soy sauce (shoyu) and fermented soy beans (natto) and it has one of the longest longevity rates of the world. Maybe the adverse effects of them may come when they are taken as supplements and not from natural sources, like mentioned here:

http://www.fwhc.org/health/phytoestrogens.htm

Romulo said:

Thanks Scotty, but again I'm a bit surprised with the reference to phytoestrogens and soy products. Here in Japan there's a great consumption of soy beans, miso soup, tofu, soy sauce (shoyu) and fermented soy beans (natto) and it has one of the longest longevity rates of the world. Maybe the adverse effects of them may come when they are taken as supplements and not from natural sources, like mentioned here:

http://www.fwhc.org/health/phytoestrogens.htm

I have heard that it has less phytoestrogens (?) if it's organic and/or fermented. Also the portion size may be different but the effect still seems to be the same: not optimal for promoting tissue growth. It seems to be as worthless as bread is compared to fruit for a carb source.

Fermentation decreases the amount of phytoestrogens. It also increases the yuck factor of taste in the case of natto. Besides looking just disgusting as it smells.

Being an athlete has little to do with longevity. I think once we go down the road of athletics, there is a price to be paid if it's kept up that way forever. However, it usually isn't and that's why there is all sorts of periodization and programs to help allieve this. This is also dependent on sport.

Soy is also been shown to produce the same effects as the "pill aka birth control" in women.

On the topic of pre workout nutrition, I'll like to know what you guys take, for me I'm been eating eggs and bread an hour before I workout, would that be alright? I'm been cutting down on soy product since I heard from my friend that plant protein ain't that good as compared to animals', should I continue with this? Thanks

bread... what for?

at least 2 hour away from training with good fats!!

I agree with Gregor.

Something interesting that both me and Robb Wolf have started playing with lately (without knowing that the other is also experimenting with the same toy) is a lower carb, higher fat post workout shake.

The idea is to let someone who has fully fat adapted (through enzymatic shift) enjoy the benefits of a high fat - low carb shake.

The research on PWO has been done on people with a westernized diets - carb adapted and though the results indicate the need for glycogen replenishment through high GI pwo carb consumption along with a fast protein source, but for someone who has shifted his system to a low carb, higher fat diet, it will respond to a different set of rules - No need to chase your glycogen status.

The combination that I use is, believe it or not, (some traditional dieticians may tremble to hear this) a saturated fat combination (SCT, MCT and LCT) with protein concentrate (which I believe is supprior to isolate, but that is for another post) and a bit of a very low carb but high antioxident berries. This combination has been giving me great results in my recovery.

Ido.

I usually work out in the morning so I just have eggs and bread b4 the session. On the topic of recovery, Ido, can you give some examples of food you take. Coz I realize that my recovery speed is quite slow, usually still aching n sore the next day.