Question On Cycles And Deloading

HI everyone,

I have been spending this past week testing mastery of all of the PE1 and iM skills. This week has been quite humbling...haha. I thought, scapular shrugs...no problem...found out its much harder than it looks...Also found out that 5 minutes of holds is a damn long time for muscular contraction!!

Anyway on to the real questions.

1. I am starting a few of the  elements in week 5 or 9 as I mastered them but feel like i could use a few more weeks making sure I am truly prepared for the next level. This throws off my deload weeks. Is it ok to deload one element in the same week as I am working quite hard on another element?

2. After mastery of an element (say MN/PE1), when moving on to the next element should I test mastery again for that element to help decide where in the 12 week cycle to start?

Thanks!

1. Try to keep deload weeks in sync. Deload weeks are for letting your body rest and repair itself. Resting just one or two areas at a time while working hard on the others will not give your body the respite it needs.

2. Whatever you do, don't do it during the deload week: that's for rest. When starting a new exercise it is a good idea to figure out what competence level you're at: there's no use spending 12 weeks training a movement that you just needed to spend 4 on. If you think you are quite strong in the given exercise, I would recommend that on the 1st day of the new cycle, you attempt a mastery-level routine. 

• If you complete a mastery-level routine with consistently good form and correct tempo, move on. Grab some water, give yourself a 5-10 minute rest, and test your mastery of the next element. [Edit  1/15/14 - you may wait until your next training day to test the next element, if you're fatigued]
• If you complete the routine, but your form and/or tempo were poor, start at week 9. This will give you time to build a little more endurance and master the feel of the movement. 
• If you do several sets but not enough to complete the routine, start at week 5. This will let you build up the endurance you need. 
• If you can't even do a single mastery-level set, start at week 1. 

If you always start each exercise at either week 1, 5, or 9, and you start all of them at the same time, then your deload weeks will naturally remain in sync every four weeks by definition of the progressions.  Now a week 12 deload by definition is more difficult than a week 4 deload, but relative to the work you've done each of the prior three weeks it is still a valid deload nonetheless.

Kinda what I was thinking too. However, here is what my Str/Mob looks like for each element.

FL - Completed PE1 Mastery but figured I would start at week 9 just to make sure it is perfectly smooth.

sPL - Failed miserable and only Completed 2 sets of PE1 mastery. Starting on week 5. Swivel needs a little work too here.

SL - Failed miserably and only completed 2 sets of PE1 mastery. Starting on week 5.

MN - Completed PE1 mastery but figured I would start at week 9 just to make sure it is perfectly smooth.

SLS - I can currently perform multiple SLS with good form and tempo. Working through the mastery levels one each day SLS comes up.

HBP - Completed PE1 Mastery. Moving into PE2 I am starting at week 5 so I can focus on form and stay injury free.

RC - Completed PE1 mastery. Moving into PE2 at week 1 so as to work on perfect form. I could probably start on week 5 but not sure that would be pushing too hard. Maybe I should test PE2 first to see where I'm at.

As you can see my deload weeks will be all over the place. How can I continue to work the skills at the levels I need to without messing up my deloading weeks?

In looking back through my post would it be very bad to just start them all in week 5? I mean I lose a month but it evens it all out. Is there any other way?

Thanks so far!

It looks like your deload weeks are all perfectly synced up. You should be hitting FL week 12 at the same time as sPL week 8, SL week 8, MN week 12, HBP week 8 and RC week 8. Those are all deload weeks. It doesn't matter that they are different deload weeks, just that they are all deload. 

Hari_Seldon said:

It looks like your deload weeks are all perfectly synced up. You should be hitting FL week 12 at the same time as sPL week 8, SL week 8, MN week 12, HBP week 8 and RC week 8. Those are all deload weeks. It doesn't matter that they are different deload weeks, just that they are all deload. 

Yep, this was the point I was trying to make as well.  The only thing that isn't synced is the mastery level test for each progression, but those don't have to be synced anyway.

Very good, gentlemen. You are understanding the programming cycles. As long as you always begin at one of the targeted starting points (wk 1, wk 5 or wk 9), your deload weeks will always be in sync.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Haha..I just noticed that too! 

So to clarify further:

1. FL/PE1 ends in 4 weeks which then I will start PE2.

2. Week 1, Day 1 of FL/PE2 I should try Mastery to verify what level I am at in Str/Mob for the next element.

3. Determine from #2 what week (wk 1, wk 5 or wk 9) I should remain at for FL/PE2 and move forward.

Does that sound correct?

taenkarth said:

Haha..I just noticed that too! 

 

So to clarify further:

1. FL/PE1 ends in 4 weeks which then I will start PE2.

2. Week 1, Day 1 of FL/PE2 I should try Mastery to verify what level I am at in Str/Mob for the next element.

3. Determine from #2 what week (wk 1, wk 5 or wk 9) I should remain at for FL/PE2 and move forward.

 

Does that sound correct?

Yeah, sounds good. 

Hari_Seldon said:

When starting a new exercise it is a good idea to figure out what competence level you're at: there's no use spending 12 weeks training a movement that you just needed to spend 4 on. If you think you are quite strong in the given exercise, I would recommend that on the 1st day of the new cycle, you attempt a mastery-level routine. 

 

• If you complete a mastery-level routine with consistently good form and correct tempo, move on. Grab some water, give yourself a 5-10 minute rest, and test your mastery of the next element. 
• If you complete the routine, but your form and/or tempo were poor, start at week 9. This will give you time to build a little more endurance and master the feel of the movement.
• If you do several sets but not enough to complete the routine, start at week 5. This will let you build up the endurance you need. 
• If you can't even do a single mastery-level set, start at week 1. 

Thanks! I spent hours looking around the forum last night for this information.

As did I- maybe this should be a sticky.

Thanks for making it a sticky, I was looking exactly for the info in #2 too.

A follow up question: I started all of F1 with week 1 of the first exercise. If I had followed this I would have started at week 5 (the volume in weeks 1-2 felt very low as well), but I also feel that the extra time spent has been beneficial. On the other hand it probably would have been more beneficial at a higher volume by repeating the more difficult weeks rather than doing the full progression.

So the question is if we start at a higher level but want to spend more time on an exercise:

• Does it need to be done in a 4 week cycle to have the deload week match what has been done over the previous 3 weeks, or can the exercise be switched in the middle of a 4 week block?
• it is ok to repeat individual weeks rather than a full 4 week block, and if yes then:
  • should the deload always be 1/2 of what was done the previous week or what is it based on if the weeks are out of sync?
  • if we start a new 4-week cycle for example on week 10 but progress normally from here, then do we just repeat the last week (w11) until hitting the deload (w12) and moving on to the next exercise?

H1 briefly mentions the cycle strategy but doesn't give these details.

mm356 said:

Yep, this was the point I was trying to make as well.  The only thing that isn't synced is the mastery level test for each progression, but those don't have to be synced anyway.

One thing remains a mystery to me. So how about the time when he reaches Mastery with say FL and MN with others still at week 8. So what should he do next week provided for example he's using a three day cycle and let's say MN is worked only once that week. I mean it seems to indicate he should do a mastery test on PE2 an then start out with week 1, 5  or 9. So when should this first week 1, 5 or 9 be done? i mean should he just push for an extra exercise in calendar? i mean otherwise the next week all others are in week 10 (2nd week of a 4 week cycle) but this one would be in week 1....

I might be a tad bit too anal on these kind of things but this part did confuse me when i did first time hit a mastery . I simply performed an extra workout of week 1 of the next cycle on the same week, but this did leave me wondering.

another thing i was wondering is "failing" a cycle by not being able to complete some set there, how should the deload then go? half of the maximum successful week, last cycles deload or maybe still the deload ment for this cycle?

That keeps me wondering too...

From what i understood so far you should programm this way:

let's say you start FL/PE1 at weak 9 and all the other PE1s at week 1.

After you've reached the 5th weak of your training cycle you've finnished FL/PE1 and start with a mastery test of FL/PE2.

So let's assume you've start FL/PE2 at weak 1. So now you just continue as usual. That means by now your programm looks like:

- FL/PE2 (weak 1)
- X/PE1 (weak 5) [ all the other PE1s ]

Am i right?

That leaves me with two questions:

1) hukka already mentioned it. What shall you do if you fail to complete one weak? or maybe cannot train for a week?

Repeat the weak? Step back one weak?

2) How should the determinition of the beginning weak look like? One again let's say i want to check my starting point at FL/PE2.

Obiviously i would start the mastery check at FL/PE3 if i can master FL/PE2 and FL/Im2. But how to determine which week i should start with?

hukka said:

One thing remains a mystery to me. So how about the time when he reaches Mastery with say FL and MN with others still at week 8. So what should he do next week provided for example he's using a three day cycle and let's say MN is worked only once that week. I mean it seems to indicate he should do a mastery test on PE2 an then start out with week 1, 5  or 9. So when should this first week 1, 5 or 9 be done? i mean should he just push for an extra exercise in calendar? i mean otherwise the next week all others are in week 10 (2nd week of a 4 week cycle) but this one would be in week 1....

 

I might be a tad bit too anal on these kind of things but this part did confuse me when i did first time hit a mastery . I simply performed an extra workout of week 1 of the next cycle on the same week, but this did leave me wondering.

 

another thing i was wondering is "failing" a cycle by not being able to complete some set there, how should the deload then go? half of the maximum successful week, last cycles deload or maybe still the deload ment for this cycle?

What I've been doing - as best I understood it from the program - is that on the first workout of the next "Week 1" I go ahead and attempt the mastery levels for that element.  If I was successful, then the next workout (or maybe even on the same day depending on how I feel) I attempt mastery of the following element.  On most elements, I don't achieve mastery the first time out, but in attempting it I do find out whether the week 1, 5, or 9 work load is the most suitable for my level.  Once I determine which level is best, I then just check that level's workout off on the box and go from there forward.

For example, let's say I attempt mastery on a 5x15r exercise and got sets of 15, 15, 13, 12, and 10.  Well although I didn't achieve mastery, I DID successfully hit the 4x12r requirement for Week 9.  I then count this as my Week 9 workout #1 and move on from there.  Make sense?

Now this works fine for me b/c I'm on the 4-day plan and every exercise gets two rounds per week.  So my second workout of the week I'd just do the 4x12 and move on to week 10 the next week.  If you're working an exercise only once a week this could still work, but I might suggest just fitting in an extra day somewhere for the initial mastery attempt just so that you can feel comfortable that you are starting on stable ground.

Just my approach - others may differ.

P5yx said:

 

That leaves me with two questions:

1) hukka already mentioned it. What shall you do if you fail to complete one weak? or maybe cannot train for a week?

Repeat the weak? Step back one weak?

2) How should the determinition of the beginning weak look like? One again let's say i want to check my starting point at FL/PE2.

 

 

Again, this is just my approach...

On failing a week:  There's really only 3 weeks in a microcycle to be concerned with.  If I fail in the first week, I might go ahead and drop back an entire microcycle here and pick up on the second week of the previous micocycle next week.  If I fail in the last week I'd just do my best to finish the week (and the microcycle) and then just repeat the same microcycle.  If I fail in the second week I'd just use my best judgement to choose what I think is the best course of action.  

There's no hard and fast rule because there's a million ways to fail.  Falling one rep short and 10 reps short are both "failing".  Just see where you are and where you're trying to go and just make a sensible judgement call.

On missing an entire week:  Assuming you missed an entire week for everything (and therefore everything is still synced), I'd probably just repeat the week I did before I missed and go from there.  Luckily for me the only time this occured for me was during a deload week.  When I got back from vacation I just deloaded and moved on from there.  It actually worked out great b/c the deload was a great tune-up for getting back in the groove from the vacation.

Here again, just use your best judgement.  As long as you're taking your time and not sprinting to the finish line, multiple methods can work.

Ok thx so far. But still one thing remains unclear. Lets say i decided to start FL/PE1 at week 5.

But maybe i would need a 12 week cycle to get good form on th FL/PE1<iM.

how can i determine an accurate week for an iM?

If you complete week 11 of the strength and can't yet do the iM, continue to week 12, and then repeat weeks 9-12 until you've mastered the iM component. 

great thanks alot!

Say I follow the program exactly as written.  I would spend 12 weeks on each exercise, then move onto week 1 of the following exercise.

In the 3 months it takes me to work up the the following exercise, would I not lose quite a bit of the strength from the previous exercise?

I know they're all supposed to be more difficult progressions, but take sP/PE1 vs sP/PE2.  I can probably finish the mastery for planks, but the scapula shrugging is quite difficult, so I need to work on that first.  But after I've mastered that, there is almost no scapula strength required for a decent plank, so I'd lose quite a bit of strength in that right?

I ask because after abusing my tendons with difficult exercises I'm not prepared for, I'm willing to take the slow route to built up the appropriate strength.  But following the full 12 week cycle for each progression seems counter intuitive to me once I stop to think about it.

So is following the full program really the best way?  Would a decent warmup of the previous progression be enough to retain strength? Also, the 21/15/9 concept for warmups threw me.....

Bipocni said:

I know they're all supposed to be more difficult progressions, but take sP/PE1 vs sP/PE2.  I can probably finish the mastery for planks, but the scapula shrugging is quite difficult, so I need to work on that first.  But after I've mastered that, there is almost no scapula strength required for a decent plank, so I'd lose quite a bit of strength in that right?

My understanding is that you actually have to hold a protracted scapula position (the "top" of a scapula pushup) during a plank, which is actually just as hard (in the same way that FL/PE1 is just as hard if not harder than MN/PE1).

Bipocni said:

(...) I'm willing to take the slow route to built up the appropriate strength.  But following the full 12 week cycle for each progression seems counter intuitive to me once I stop to think about it (...)

Haven't you read the fine print before signing up for F1?

... by using this program, you agree to surrender all preconceptions and prejudices about your training; to precisely follow the protocols (that may change from time to time); and to renounce any further rights to use "intuition" or any other excuse to stop and especially to think: from clicking on the "I agree" button onwards, your only right and duty is to "do the work" and get stronger!

Okay so if I choose to follow the 12 week cycle for every element how do I avoid losing strength at the previous elements?

.

Another quick question/idea for attempting mastery:

lets say we are able to achieve mastery at the first attempt.
wouldn't it be better to perform the pe at least for one month no matter what? i've noticed serveral times that i could do something better after i've played around with a pe for a little while.
so would you suggest training every pe for at least one month no matter what?