Carb Bloat

In the past I have preferred low carb diets to high carb diets.  I changed this to increase performance.

I have been doing a cyclical diet of under 100g carbs low days (all veggies) and maybe triple that on workout days with most of the extra carbs being around my workout (skimmed milk pre and peri W.O, some sugary stuff straight after and potatoes, rice, buckwheat, oats).  This is not set in stone but is the general pattern depending on intensity of workout, activity etc.

I don't want to obsess about nutritiming and weighing measuring TOO much because it's funny but I nearly a panic attack once during the height of my bodybuilding obsessiveness when I couldn't count exactly what I had eaten.  I was mental then and I don't want to get back into that lol!  That said I try and eat for my activity level.

My problem is I love the way I feel when I am not retaining water under my skin from carbs.  I feel puffy and horrible when I eat carbs.  My energy levels are higher when I eat carbs and I perform better but my face goes rounder and softer and I feel like my skin is about to explode with blood (I haven't checked but I assume higher BP).

I look forward to the low calorie days when I am not training.  I am considering upping fat intake on all days and just having the following around my workout because I just can't stand the bloat:

preworkout:   Cottage Cheese & 10 Fish Oil Caps            --- 30p 20c 10f

periworkout:  1 pint Skimmed Milk & 1tbsp Sugar            --- 15p 40c 0f

postworkout:   high GI carbs & whey to make up protein --- 30p 90c

which is just under 1000kcal.

Is there any way around the bloating or should I just accept that I either pick performance and feeling puffy or a nice defined face and feeling nice and lean?

I spent a bit of time swaying between higher carb intake and low carbing, with varying problems:

High carb

More energy for working out

Lack of energy at points during the day (sugar crashes)

Irritable, mood swings

Bloating, puffiness and no progress with weight loss

Etc.

Low carb

Even energy throughout day

Sleeping well

No bloating, pffiness and weight loss resumed

Ran out of energy during demanding workouts

Recovery took a fair bit longer.

Etc.

Seems obvious now, surprised it took so long to realise (doh!) but what works best for me is medium carb. Everybody has different requirements and tolerance to carbohydrates, so it really is a case of what works for you. For me, a rule of thumb is that if my teeth feel shiny at the end of the day (like I just brushed them) then I didn't overdo the carbs. Don't know if there's any science in that.

For me: no refined sugar, no white carbs (except basmati rice) and some fruit (that is more sour than sweet - berries, citrus). I also am pretty free with ghee/butter and coconut oil when cooking, and EVOO for salads to keep my calorie intake up to reasonable levels.

NB: Also, there has been some interesting research on starches recently (I saw it on Robb Wolf's site) that seems to show that getting your carbs from starches sort of pre-releases insulin before anything hits the bloodstream, triggered by the digestive process starting in the mouth. That means overall there is less of an energy spike/crash and less of that imflammatory insulin released overall.

I am sure an expert will be along soon to put me straight, but as I understand it the insulin (or at least the inflammation it causes) is the main culprit for the puffiness/water retention.

Can't speak for milk/dairy products or wheat from personal experience, as they irritate my digestion - to the point where if I eat a pizza I resemble a pregnant woman for a day or so and contribute greatly to the greenhouse effect. Still it is nice from time to time.

Don't know if any of this helps?

Cheers,

George.

edit: Is not clear from post, but asides from the carb intake I eat plenty of protein (meat, eggs, fish) and as many veggies as I can manage.

Any post workout carbs for me are typically now just in the form of berries because of what you described. Some of those foods you wrote don't surprised me that you are bloating. The milk and sugar especially. I am also not a big advocate of white potatoes in most cases.

Try mixing around what you use and the amount you use. Rice is one that most people aren't as allergenic too. Milk and sugar is the opposite.

Thank you for the replies.

Yeah wheat feels terrible as do oats come to think of it - I love porridge though.

The teeth thing is interesting - perhaps to do with too much amylase produced when eating higher carb.  I once kidded myself into not brushing my teeth for a week when I was well imbued by the primal blueprint cult.  Cavemen didn't have toothbrushes right lmao?

Actually lions actually only develop tooth decay when fed a vegan diet with no red meat - the guy told us when I went to Africa.

I know what you mean about the greenhouse effect.  I hardly ever fart on a low carb diet.  Add carbs and it's all day non stop lol wake up and my bedroom absolutely stinks.  I always thought this alone showed my digestive system does not agree with it.

I think I am going to go higher fat again and just have carbs in a similar format to the workout nutrition in my OP as based on Josh's Workout Nutrition 2013.  I am going to take out the skimmed milk and cottage cheese though and use whey for protein instead because I do feel bloated during workouts.

I may also try and just use vegetable starches and no grains for a while too to see if that's the problem.

That is what I do and have been doing recently. I eat some small amounts after workouts in the form of berries, and I will have a small refeed day where I'll eat sweet potatoes and rice but I'm cautious on the amount. I prefer to not actually be fully stored if carbs. Feels better and I feel way less sluggish.

Alex Chubb said:

That is what I do and have been doing recently. I eat some small amounts after workouts in the form of berries, and I will have a small refeed day where I'll eat sweet potatoes and rice but I'm cautious on the amount. I prefer to not actually be fully stored if carbs. Feels better and I feel way less sluggish.

I'd say that's just avoiding the problem by itself, but not fixing it. You'd greatly benefit from getting the right amount of carbs and if you're training intensively, a couple of berries is definitely not enough.

Sluggishness is a problem with insulin sensitivity. Exercise greatly improves it and dietary changes can affect it but you'll have to do the research yourself.

Puffiness may be a problem with water retention. I don't know much about that but maybe playing around with salt would help. Slizz could probably say something about this.

I believe it's a matter of carb intolerance rather than sensitivity. I've actually reversed most of my insulin sensitivity issues just by switching to lower carb. Now I'm below 7.5 percent body fat all the time. And probably lower since I got it tested.

Anyways, I feel like I make much better gains this way. I train 6-8 hours and still don't need much. I don't think we need to be driving around with the gas tank on full all the time.

Alex Chubb said:

I believe it's a matter of carb intolerance rather than sensitivity. I've actually reversed most of my insulin sensitivity issues just by switching to lower carb. Now I'm below 7.5 percent body fat all the time. And probably lower since I got it tested.

Anyways, I feel like I make much better gains this way. I train 6-8 hours and still don't need much. I don't think we need to be driving around with the gas tank on full all the time.

There are also genetic differences in metabolism that are very hard to predict, and can influence what types of carbohydrates work best for different people, particularly fructose-containing carbs.

People always have to figure out which foods they respond best to, and there's no easy way to predict what they are.

What are your measures of insulin sensitivity? Body fat does not count.

I'm putting together something that, when finished, will help people avoid nearly all of these issues, and it will make intuitive sense because it will be based off of how we actually work.

I'm saying it was connected to my leaning out. As my insulin got better, I got down to below 8 percent. I have had my blood glucose tested to note the changes.

Of all the students I have, I have two that are carb tolerant. Maybe I just attract similar people.

Carb tolerance. Wonder if my eating of a full size Butterfinger Cupcake lastnight counts...

Not only am I carb tolerant I have to eat them to function with any level of non-irritability. As your body gets leaner your metabolism tends to be more efficient. I'm sitting between 8-10% most of the time now. I try not go lower as it plays hell with my immune system due to allergy rhinitis.

I have no issues with wheat but fruit I keep to a minimum. Everybody will respond slightly different to various diets. One of the biggest problems is a lack of patience to see how a change in meal composition affects over time. Nutritional changes take time. Up to 3 months for some.

Alex Chubb said:

I'm saying it was connected to my leaning out. As my insulin got better, I got down to below 8 percent. I have had my blood glucose tested to note the changes.

Of all the students I have, I have two that are carb tolerant. Maybe I just attract similar people.

Have you had an oral glucose tolerance tests?

The ideal way to measure insulin resistance is an insulin clamp test. Of course, several tests (including oral glucose tolerance) seem to correlate pretty well with the clamp test.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17957034

http://www.musc.edu/dfm/RCMAR/InsulinSens.html

As Nic has said, there is a wide spectrum of possible metabolic variation in terms of response to various foods outside of exercise.

Of course, there is also a lack of proper transition to a diet that reflects direct energy utilization, and that, combined with poor food choices (though not an issue for you, I don't think) tends to make predicting an individual's results from this change very difficult.

There's also not a clear correlation between super low body fat % and increased performance, and there are pretty clear limitations on what you can accomplish (in terms of body comp) at any given height and weight, despite whatever Poliquin likes to say.

If anyone's familiar with the Fat Free Mass Index, it actually helps you see what the limitations are on leanness at any given height/weight. Well, more accurately, it represents a body of work that examined known steroid users and people who are believed to be drug free, and a FFMI over 26 is associated strongly with steroid use.

Right now, I'm 225 @ 10%. My FFMI is significantly higher than it was when i was 204 and 6.92% (FFMI of 24.26). Because my FFMI is 25.97 or so, at the moment, it is (according to the body of research) extremely unlikely that I will get leaner than I am now at this body weight. At 73.5 inches tall, the maximum weight I can be at ~7% is 218. Anything beyond that, according to the research, is not going to happen without drugs. That does represent a statistical evaluation, so there are some people that are going to exist outside of these guidelines. They are still relevant for at least 80% of the world's population. For me, the difference between 218 @7% and 225 @10% is only 0.1 lbs of lean mass, and so this range probably does represent my most ideal body composition for gymnastics.

That's just the result of Foundation 1 work and proper nutrition (my way, which I realize is not fully public), there was no goal to gain mass. It just happens on its own. This probably also represents a genetic predisposition for a more muscular frame, which both of my parents (and their families) have.

I may look into getting tested with one of those then to make sure it's right at the level it needs to be. Diabetes runs in the family. Keeping it from happening is the goal.

Up to three months is a long time to feel like crap. Especially since I'm training so much.

Haha yes I know you don't like Poliquins teachings. It's a different method, but I haven't had it work for a single person I've worked with. I see you get good results with your method too so all good. Personally, I'd be interested in seeing you getting consulted by him and seeing what happens. I'm sure the results would be different than we all think but unless you have 10,000 dollars to spare, we won't know for sure. Anyways, that's all I'll say on this subject. None of us here have trained anyone THAT high level and I'll agree to disagree until we do.

Alex Chubb said:

I may look into getting tested with one of those then to make sure it's right at the level it needs to be. Diabetes runs in the family. Keeping it from happening is the goal.

Up to three months is a long time to feel like crap. Especially since I'm training so much.

Haha yes I know you don't like Poliquins teachings. It's a different method, but I haven't had it work for a single person I've worked with. I see you get good results with your method too so all good. Personally, I'd be interested in seeing you getting consulted by him and seeing what happens. I'm sure the results would be different than we all think but unless you have 10,000 dollars to spare, we won't know for sure. Anyways, that's all I'll say on this subject. None of us here have trained anyone THAT high level and I'll agree to disagree until we do.

Honestly, you're doing just about everything you need to be doing. Full body resistance training and a clean diet are your two best defenses against diabetes! I'm going to be very honest... I am not terribly worried about you. You're a smart guy, and you have all the most important stuff in place. With the family history, the test would be worth the cost maybe every 5-10 years, just to keep track of your baseline.

Three months is a very, very long time to feel like crap. If I were there, I would share my suggested method for the transition, which is really just looking at the endpoint 12 weeks from now and doing a 12 step slow transition. We might end up finding out that, for whatever reason, you are happiest at week 6 intakes for whatever reason, and if that were the case then hey... why not stay there?

I would love to have that kind of spare cash   It would be an experience well worth writing about! Poliquin's methods require a whole lot of supplements to do correctly, and, from the way he has written about his consults with the pro athletes he's worked with, his full methodology is completely inaccessible to the general public. I don't mean Biosig, but everything he does as a whole (intravenous vitamin C, etc). That doesn't mean they don't work! He's gotten some pretty outrageously awesome results, can't argue with that. It's also pretty hard to distinguish his personal methods from the stuff he has his staff write about, so I'm not convinced I really understand what his full "method" is. For all I know, I might end up agreeing.

I definitely agree that at this point the discussion is pretty much just academic, and I've got no desire to sour a perfectly good friendship

That makes more sense. I am sure it's a gradual process. Maybe there is something I am doing wrong that is making me feel sluggish when they are used.

Haha I think you are both experts. I've seen both of you get great results with your methods and I've leaned from both. I'm basically doing the Bruce Lee water thing! Even if it doesn't work for me, it has worked for other people I know. My ectormorph students particularly get use out of it so thanks!

No problem, I am glad that I can help! Teamwork is good