Categorizing Movements For A Beginner/intermediate

I have been new on here for a little while and have read many posts, essays, tutorials, BtGB Book 1 ed. as well as F1. Many people have been asking questions about building themselves a program for bodyweight/gymnastics conditioning. I agree with some of the more experienced members in which in the book(s) it does address a typical 3,4, or 5 day program, it talks about rests and sets, and it even delves into intensity as well as 12 week build up cycles. This is essentially everything needed for a beginning beginner. 

However I did have a question for developing a program past that. It seems I am not the only one with this question or questions in this regard so please do not reply it is in one of the books or you must attend a seminar to find out. I have read and reread the information and I do look forward to attending one in the future but I would like to start from where I am at first; and I feel the information I am looking for is not in any of the resources yet published. 

That being said, I would like to incorporate a full body program in which my end goal would be to do workouts with planche pushups, lever pull ups, handstand push ups, rings etc. (essentially a truly body weight workout) From F1 I currently have a way to incorporate the Levers, Planches, and Legs (which is extremely laid out in my opinion for all the beginners out there), however I would like to add in some statics in which I am already proficient in (which from what I have read in other posts, it is ok as long as you don't over train). 

To help with questions I will make it easier...I am going to follow the four day Mon/Tues, Thurs/Fri plan, and for argument sake I am going to start from the beginning testing every exercise until I find my limit. I then will follow as prescribed in F1.

Question 1: Because it is not addressed, incorporating HS work into the workouts as presented by F1 should it be an everyday timed workout or should it follow a break up as a work and recover such as like a planche or a lever progression; and on which day would it be more preferential to coincide (Mon/Tues)?

Question 2: As far as flexibility goes, it is somewhat of a requirement when doing straddle press to HS, Is there a lower-body stretching routine that can be incorporated into this program? (I know the answer is yes,  I am actually looking at something concrete to follow, preferably from some one that has develop a full front and side split; I am just trying to increase my ROM)

Question 3: (Last question) The Main reason this is this topic title, Is there a summarized list in which one could use to continue to use to build a program once past foundations, I know this will be a while, but it helps me to see the end goal. (A.k.a a list of "end skills" in which to know that all of these skills would be on the day you are working toward planches, levers, HS, Legs, etc.) 

I know for some of you these questions may be simple, but I would like yall to understand I did not grow up with a gymnastics background nor am I a sports medicine, or exercise science major so please lets be constructive with the replies. I appreciate your time and look forward to developing further than I already have with this community.

If you have questions regarding detailed modifications of F1, you should ask that in the subforum dedicated to F1.

Q1: We don't know, exactly, how Coach is going to recommend the incorporation of handstand work, but for now think of it this way:

We always used to recommend dedicating some time in your workout to handstand work, eventually building up to 10 minutes. That's your wall handstands, etc. I would not chance that, and there's no reason you should NEED to change that, if you are following the F1 template. I tend to do my handstand work separately, and have for a long time, because for me that seems to work better. And I can get it in between classes.

Q2: I would probably look into Kit Laughlin's book "Stretching and Flexibility" for some pretty good answers. It is almost certainly geared more towards those goals than the "Overcoming Neck and Back Pain" book. However, I don't own it yet so I can't say for sure. Doing the basics, meaning actually practicing the stretches, and doing PNF stretches for the individual muscle groups that you feel are limiting factors, is going to help a lot.

Q3:  I'm just going to be blunt here: We've got no business thinking past the Foundation until we get to the end of F4. That is what has gotten so many people hurt over the years. We look at the pretty planche, see the pretty planche, and try to rush towards the pretty planche. Half of us would be DOING straddle planches right now if we weren't so busy looking ahead. I sure as hell would probably be doing full planche right now.

However: Let's say that you, like me, have a full FL. I'm still doing the PE exercises, because I haven't mastered them yet. Full lay hollow rocks still kill me at 40-45 reps. That does not keep me from doing 1-3 sets of actual FL work after my PE work. Sometimes I do it first, but for me it doesn't matter... works well before OR after. My primary focus is on the PE work, and you know what? It's working. Between the FL and rope climb PE work I am back to being able to do full lay yewkis with very nice form, and I'm not even putting a real focus on those movements. I just do 1 to 3 sets of some kind of FL work, usually 1 set of three different exercises. My selection process depends on how I feel that day.

A detailed discussion of that does not belong here, it belongs in the area designated for F1 discussion. Hopefully you can see what I am getting at.  If not, you'll need to open up a discussion thread in a more appropriate area.

Remember: Your focus should be on the Foundation work. All of your other work will benefit from this approach. Every single person who is taking this approach is seeing much better progress than they did in the past. I don't think you're going to be an exception.

Joshua Naterman said:

Q2: I would probably look into Kit Laughlin's book "Stretching and Flexibility" for some pretty good answers. It is almost certainly geared more towards those goals than the "Overcoming Neck and Back Pain" book. However, I don't own it yet so I can't say for sure. Doing the basics, meaning actually practicing the stretches, and doing PNF stretches for the individual muscle groups that you feel are limiting factors, is going to help a lot.

I recently emailed Kit about this. He recommended S&F over ONBP. 

Joshua Naterman said:

Q3:  I'm just going to be blunt here: We've got no business thinking past the Foundation until we get to the end of F4. That is what has gotten so many people hurt over the years. We look at the pretty planche, see the pretty planche, and try to rush towards the pretty planche. Half of us would be DOING straddle planches right now if we weren't so busy looking ahead. I sure as hell would probably be doing full planche right now.

As someone who has a straddle planche, I have to say that I agree. It took me 4 or 5 years of GST before I had a solid straddle planche. But I took the long and slow route. If I had rushed into planche training, I probably would have hurt myself. Instead, because I built a solid foundation, I'm quickly progressing through more and more advanced variations; just two days ago I pressed from sPL to handstand on rings. 

Joshua Naterman said:

However: Let's say that you, like me, have a full FL. I'm still doing the PE exercises, because I haven't mastered them yet. Full lay hollow rocks still kill me at 40-45 reps. That does not keep me from doing 1-3 sets of actual FL work after my PE work. Sometimes I do it first, but for me it doesn't matter... works well before OR after. My primary focus is on the PE work, and you know what? It's working. Between the FL and rope climb PE work I am back to being able to do full lay yewkis with very nice form, and I'm not even putting a real focus on those movements. I just do 1 to 3 sets of some kind of FL work, usually 1 set of three different exercises. My selection process depends on how I feel that day.

Agreed. I, too, am finding that Foundation work is helping me out a great deal, despite being able to perform skills that are beyond the scope of the Foundation course.. 

Joshua Naterman said:

A detailed discussion of that does not belong here, it belongs in the area designated for F1 discussion. Hopefully you can see what I am getting at.  If not, you'll need to open up a discussion thread in a more appropriate area.

 

Remember: Your focus should be on the Foundation work. All of your other work will benefit from this approach. Every single person who is taking this approach is seeing much better progress than they did in the past. I don't think you're going to be an exception.

Joshua Naterman said:

I sure as hell would probably be doing full planche right now.

This is a contradictory sentence.

To Naterman: Since I cannot send you a message privately to air some grievances I apologize for having to do it publicly as you may not feel it is appropriate. Let me start off by saying most of your reply was informative and helpful. Also let me say that please don't take this message the wrong way because I am not trying to get in a pissing contest and that is why I hope you will accept that I am trying to respect you and did not want you to feel attacked by this post. 

I don't know if it was your intention to sound like a condescending person or if that is just the way I read your words, I can't exactly hear your tone through the forum however, as a moderator I would expect a slight bit more professionalism from someone, which in all regards, represents Coach and what he has been building. I like other people new to the site have questions; agreed some of them can be dumb.

That being said I just wanted to address the two main reasons I am writing this, first, the reason I put the topic in community is that there is no "building a program questions" forum. I understand this information is laid out in BtGB and more in depth in F1. That being said it is regardless if I am trying to do even more because even as you have said you do more than just the PE and the level I am should not matter because some people are solely in F1 others are past, and some are like you and I are both in and past. As that is said there is no dedicated spot for people of all levels to share tips of how they work out, and if there is I was unaware; so If I posted in the
wrong place I don't know if there is a "move to" feature but I would like to have this re-post in a more appropriate place if that helps
the community.

Second, I do hope that you are not trying to be passive-aggressive. I like many others do try to give others benefit of the doubt when on a public forum, however, when you were being blunt, you did seem to stereotype and project your sentiments of others trying to do "pretty things" onto me. Let me assure you I, like you, am of the age where I have common sense and am not going to risk injury to post a pretty picture of "looky what I can do" when I haven't sufficiently built up to that level and your banter on telling me I should follow the template exactly falls short as if you read my post I reiterated twice, that I was following the foundations the way is what meant to be  followed. Before foundations I was following BtGB the way it is supposed to be followed. I have made significant progress, all without the
aches and pains everyone keeps referring to. (Probably because of Coaches advice I implemented his Steady state training to the letter and have been allowing my body to adapt)

Third, and final, I assume you are working on your degree from your status update, I applaud that. If you blindly took classes not having an end goal, one would say you could get demotivated and lose focus, or not get the fullness of your education and learning. I apply that to every aspect of my life, I DREAM, I think of where I want to be, and put milestones and end goals insight to push my focus and to make sure I don't get lackadaisical in my training or other endeavors. So for me, a list in which I can just cross stuff off motivates me. Like I said, F1 has started to do that for me, but for all areas including handstands and other work, Coach is not finished releasing his products, essays, tutorials or the like so a list that the community should work towards would be nice. I heard people mention something of this ranking system, but in the works here that I have found there is not a list like that yet.
 

I did want to reiterate the tone I am taking isn't angry, or even venting. I just wanted to further describe what I meant by my post and that I am not a "FNG" (Newbie) when it comes to body weight conditioning, I have been using body weight conditioning for a long time and have recently wanted to step it up a little. 

I do agree with you that people do need to be proficient with the fundamentals before moving on, as a solid core will make things easier later on and prevent pointless injuries, but that doesn't mean that we should just not think of them all together. 

I appreciate your time, and apologize for the length, and hope that we can continue to work towards a common goal.

jjk910 said:

Question 3: (Last question) The Main reason this is this topic title, Is there a summarized list in which one could use to continue to use to build a program once past foundations, I know this will be a while, but it helps me to see the end goal. (A.k.a a list of "end skills" in which to know that all of these skills would be on the day you are working toward planches, levers, HS, Legs, etc.) 

There is no comprehensive list, because body-weight training is entirely open-ended. The 'end-goal' is whatever you want it to be. If you looking for inspiration, I'd suggest watching the rings finals from recent olympic games. If you want something more codified, the FIG code of points lists all of the ring strengths skills that are used in elite-level competitions, up to the hardest of the hard. The book "Overcoming Gravity" lists some nice progressions for many bodyweight skills in much more detail than the Code of points, but doesn't go as far in terms of difficulty (yet it still goes beyond pretty much everyone on this forum). 

Long term goals are fun.  Short term goals are where the work goes...

If you want to look at long term exercises (maltese, planche on rings, high manna etc...) go ahead, but you need to focus on getting the 7 fundamental skills down FIRST.  Until you can tell me that you have mastery in these then you don't have much reasoning for getting the next step.  And I can tell you that if you have these skills you will be inherently more informed about what steps you need to take afterwards.

The code of points is good if you are singling out gymnastic skills to achieve and add to a routine.  This is not the major focus of the GB program.  That focus is to develop all around strength using gymnastic strength principles.  There just aren't enough people around here who are ready for the kind of training that calls for advanced skills to be in their strength routines.  Coach is giving the steps as people need them so that they do not skip.  To those who are ready, the WODS will be available, or you can do traditional routines that have been mentioned elsewhere on this forum.

We as a community cannot develop a list ourselves because it would be mostly worthless.  We are not experts, Coach is.

I appreciate the input, to Hari, sounds like a good place to start appreciate that. To Daniel indeed Long term goals are fun I agree and yes the seven fundamental skills is still what I am working to get GREAT form on not just mediocre as like Naterman I have redirected my efforts of focusing the exercises from BtGB to F1. Like I had discussed with Naterman, it is not my intention to get to far ahead of myself however, and he is correct that to fully succeed one would have to put desires of performing "pretty" things quickly aside, but I would ask what is wrong at looking at the next step for motivation? what is wrong with watching olympic athletes or even acrobatic entertainers or the occasional YouTube as a goal to work towards? I am not asking for the moves to skip, as I have said before, I want to be patient and practice my due diligence. You are correct Coach can publish a list and there has been mention of a ranking system. So the question would remain has a progression that Coach wants everyone to go through already been posted (such as the final progression in each foundation series)? 

The answer I can guess is no. And yes I understand that it will all be revealed in time in the coming foundations epubs and if there isn't one by then I am sure I will have enough information to build my own list that will suit me. Again I appreciate all the answers to my questions and hope we all didn't get off on a bad note. At this point I am going to have to wait to see how the GB program develops.

The way I understand it your long term goal would be to achieve mastery in the 7 fundementals which the foundation series will allow you to do. After that we can only really speculate as to what coach has in mind for us, probably will include elements such as iron cross and maltese but as I said thats just speculation.

Im pretty sure theres a saying about climbing a tall mountain and that if keep looking towards the summit you'll trip over your own feet but if you keep your head down and focus on the next step you'll be at the top before you know it or something like that.

so as has been suggested look at some videos from the olympics or somesuch. cant do any harm if you glance at the summit every so often, so long as you make sure of your step it might even help to keep you going in the right direction (very contrived analogy I know

FutureisNow said:

Obviously one has to start somewhere and getting strength, flexibility and endurance in any area is good. 

 

May I be a bit of a devil's advocate here?

 

I've heard people say that since working on the foundations they are better than ever, but are there before/after assessments to prove this available? Wouldn't providing that help justify the considerable time and expense of embarking upon and following this program ?  After all, we listened to advice that following the initial but now rejected recommendations would work. What unbiased proof is there that these assuredly will and won't be also overridden in the future as well?

 

At least, what was the thought process that led to deciding that these 7 areas should be focused upon first by everyone? 

Combined, those seven areas form a balanced and complete bodyweight program. FL works the core and shoulder extension. SL works the back and obliques. sPL works the hip extensors and shoulder flexion. MN works hip flexors and shoulder hyper-extension. Rope climb is an excellent pulling exercise; HBP is excellent pushing, and SLS mastery puts you on the path towards explosive leg strength. 

My understanding is that the F1 programming has been in development for several years; those who attended the seminars were given preliminary versions of it, and they have all had excellent results. 

Also note that following the foundation in no way precludes you from doing other strength work. The foundation is approximately a 20-40 minute commitment: as you advance, it tends to shift closer to 20m than 40m, because the reps and hold times for each exercise significantly decrease. So if your strength training normally lasts an hour, you've only given up a third of it to the foundation. After doing your foundation work, you're then free to pursue whatever else you think you'd like to do. Just be careful and make sure you're properly prepared for any more advanced work you decide to do. 

When I was a kid, I thought the one arm pushup was the greatest feat of strength I'd ever seen.  When I got older and heard about the one arm pullup, I thought no-one could get stronger than that.  Then I saw the iron cross for the first time.

My point is, I don't think there is an upper limit to how strong people can get.  For the record, my long term (a decade or more) goals are:

Floor:

One arm straddle press to handstand

Planche

Back flip

Back limber

Rings:

Gallimore

90 degree pushup

Elevator

Iron cross

This is by no means a complete list, but just a few things I've seen that blow my mind.

Rik: I'm not sure what the contradiction was. I started this program in February 2009 (I believe, might have been 2008 but I can't remember anymore... pretty sure it was '09) and by that August I could hold straddle planche for a few seconds. It's not unreasonable to think that 4 years spent on proper foundation development, with strength maintenance done as a minimal side-investment to keep the strength I had developed from previous training, would have seen me through to full planche and probably much more advanced ring strength skills. Unfortunately I was focused on getting to planche quickly, instead of focusing on proper development, and I ended up in a nasty cycle of injuries and stalled development.

jjk910: No problem, I appreciate you being open with how you feel. Passive-aggressive isn't my style, and I apologize for having made you feel that way. Try to see things from my perspective: I make a post, and a huge number of people read it. I can't just talk directly to you as if this were a private conversation. I think it is important for people to understand that the "pretty planche syndrome" is something that many of us suffer from at first, and that moving past it as quickly as possible and getting right into proper foundational work is the key to both our health and our success in GST.

Let's say that there was some sort of hypothetical list like you asked for. That would literally be what the program past Foundation 4 is. You can't ask us to give away future products.

The end goal is to have people able to do exactly what you have said, be able to perform fairly advanced bodyweight exercises in all categories. Planche push ups, maltese, pelicans, Iron cross, and transitions between the various intermediate and advanced positions.

BtGB shows a long progression for each movement family that should offer you challenges for quite a while, and could serve as the strength training that you do after foundation.

The way I do this, since my FL strength is far beyond F1 or F2, is to do my F1 work and then do 1-2 sets of something harder, like a few reps of full lay Yewkis or full lay front pulls. Those aren't my focus, they are a distant second. I do my 5 sets of foundation, and 1-2 sets of a few small things like that. It's strange, perhaps, but that is working very well, and the major difference is that now I have solid foundation work as the main workout.

The reason I suggested this conversation might be more appropriate in the F1 section is that I thought there was a designated area for F1 customers to discuss the program in detail. We can't exactly do that in the public forum, that would just put the whole program out there for free, and that isn't exactly legal or morally justifiable.

In short, what you are asking for is simply not something that can be posted in the public forum, and until I know exactly how Coach wants things like this handled I am going to focus on trying to make sure people understand that the Foundation series is something that was made for their benefit, and that they will be quite surprised at where they may fall short. There's no need to abandon one's strength, but the details of how to do this kind of thing will need to remain available to Foundation customers. Non-customers don't need to learn how to integrate anything else with the Foundation program, because they don't have it.

I couldn't find the F1 customer-specific space, which is why this hasn't been moved. I'll be asking Coach and Cory for more information about that.

Also, sorry about the no PM situation, I re-organized my inbox but apparently grouping things into folders isn't the same as the old forum, and I am still over the limit, even though my inbox itself is below the limit.

Bipocni said:

When I was a kid, I thought the one arm pushup was the greatest feat of strength I'd ever seen.  When I got older and heard about the one arm pullup, I thought no-one could get stronger than that.  Then I saw the iron cross for the first time.

 

My point is, I don't think there is an upper limit to how strong people can get.  For the record, my long term (a decade or more) goals are:

Not trying to be a jerk or anything, but there will always be a limit in terms of how strong people can get based on mainly genetics. You don't suppose people can lift bridges and buildings do you (even if you didn't mean that)? People will permanently plateau at some point in their strength training when they have reached their absolute genetic limit. We are not real saiyans or supersaiyans lol. The skills you have listed in the above quote are all attainable for reasonably fit individuals given enough training.

Josh - Rik was poking fun at "sure as hell would probably" when he said that the sentence was contradictory.  I'm positive that I might be right, anyway.  

Naterman- I got that now, I guess I am that green to the site that I didn't realize there was a Public or Private space, now that I know that it makes much more sense and I also get the gist with future products and how you generalize posts...all in all I hold no grudges, and hope we didn't get off to a bad start. I appreciate your time.

Cannister said:

Josh - Rik was poking fun at "sure as hell would probably" when he said that the sentence was contradictory.  I'm positive that I might be right, anyway.  

Narf! Wow. I was slow on that one, huh.

JJK: We're fine, no worries.

"pretty planche syndrome" is an excellent point, Josh. The hardest part for me has  been (is) setting my ego aside and being patient. F1 remedies that very well

Mike Chomitsch said:

"pretty planche syndrome" is an excellent point, Josh. The hardest part for me has  been (is) setting my ego aside and being patient. F1 remedies that very well

ain't that the truth. now that im following F1 template, my L-sit has gotten BETTER and compressing upwards into a V is actually higher. by the time I'm gonna be working it, it'll be taxing but I imagine it will be easier than it is right now. how righteous!

Mike Chomitsch said:

(...) The hardest part for me has  been (is) setting my ego aside and being patient. (...)

hehehe, you are not alone my friend...

It is an everyday battle.