Dragondoor's New Cert.

[RawStrength]

http://www.dragondoor.com/workshops/details/pcc001/

 

 Probably the most stupid and over-priced thing I've ever seen. Seriously $1,995.00 for things you can learn for free on this forum? Yeah I'm gonna pay two grand to learn push-ups and pullups. Stupid.

 

 This guy sums it up pretty well: http://kbforum.dragondoor.com/showthread.php?t=153986

 

 What do you guys think about this blasphemy?

[alec_ar]

My personal advice is to skip out on PCC entirely. Run for the hills. Al Kavadlo is a nice guy, and pretty strong too, but absolutely nothing his course appears to offer isn't covered in great detail for FREE here.

Most of it looks to be an introduction to basics anyway frog stand, elbow lever (yippee!). Basics that only require a little knowledge and some elbow grease to accomplish, NOT 2,000$! One of coach's articles 'All Muscle, No Iron' was what introduced me to GST, and kept me busy for months for free!

Keep in mind he is not a gymnast, and can not introduce you to the immense world of GST anywhere near as well or correctly as Coach (who offers his own brilliant instructional seminars for a fraction of the price)

My opinion is subjective but anyone who would consider taking that program, please look into Al Kavadlo, what he is about, and why, based on the course description, that PCC is not worth it. Thanks for sharing!

[RawStrength]

Definitely, Al Kavadlo seems like a decent guy and is relatively fit, but his accomplishments in bodyweight is mediocre. He can do a One-Arm Pullup, that's impressive but it's probably the only thing that's truly impressive in terms of his accomplishments. He's just a skinny dude that works out in a park with a creepy smile. I would rather have someone like Joshua Naterman train me, and he probably won't charge two grand for it either (he's a reasonable guy).

 

 I just feel sorry for guys that fall for this scam, you can do a lot with two grand, like buy more food to fuel your body after working out, and of course purchasing Coach's book (I have Coach's rings ).

[Noel Shevchenko]

but on the other hand, there is always some idiots who would give money for that program.

[Quick Start Test Smith]

This makes me feel so fortunate for so many things. Where would I be if I hadn't discovered GB? Probably in some commercial gym using the lat machine, avoiding squats and deadlifts, and curling in the squat rack! The fact that this seminar is so outragiously expensive makes me feel like reflecting on where else on the internet--forget that, in the whole world--can you find such such a fantastic crew of such high caliber sports expertise here at GB who give out specific advice for free and aren't trying to make a buck off of us? I mean, where else you talk with people like Coach, Joshua, Cole, Nic, Mats, Dillon, Cory, for free and have them politely and generously respond with top quality advice and comments.

 

That's right. Nowhere GB is the best there is, folks. I'm so lucky.

 

Makes me feel like I have a responsibility to put everything I've learned here to such good use that people will see me train and perform and think, "Gee, I wonder where that guy trains." And if they ask, I'll say "GymnasticBodies.com, buddy! See you there !"

[RawStrength]

Well worded Patrick. I feel lucky to have a place like this that offers quality, no-nonsense information from advanced trainees and experts alike. Dragondoor really ramps up my bull-shit detector sometimes.

[Lucas Serur]

Nothing against Al Kavadlo personally, but he was training a full lay bent arm planche with the goal of having a straight arm planche by straightening his arms over time: http://www.alkavadlo.com/2011/01/31/planche-training-update/

This is a lack of basic straight arm strength development knowledge. If you read the Planche and Front lever training article Coach has wrote a long ago, this is there. For free. And then Al is going to do a $2000 seminar teaching gymnastic-based exercises for people who don't know better.

[AlexX]

I normally don't agree with bashing other body-weight programs just because they don't focus on straight arm strength (not everyone's goal) but I'd have to agree here. The price being charged does not seem to reflect the quality that you are getting in return. If I was to spend $2,000 I would expect to be taught by someone who has trained a number of athletes in what they are teaching with elite success in their sport/field (for example Dave Tate/ Jim Wendler in powerlifting, Coach in Gymnastics, Eric Cressey in Baseball player training and so on) and/or accomplished a significant level of strength in what is being presented himself. They don't seem to deliver in either of these requirements. 

Interestingly enough, most courses from the above mentioned people are usually about half the price or less of what they are charging. 

[Joshua Slocum]

The raw, unabashed effectiveness of the pushup in building strength and conditioning is unquestionable.

Part explosive pullup, part brutal bar dip, the muscle-up tests explosive power,

Yeah, sounds like they know what they're talking about. As AlexX said, for $2k I'd expect much higher quality instructors. 

[Quick Start Test Smith]

Unfortunately, the product page is the standard low quality marketing garbage you'd expect from DD (wish they'd fix that). 

 

Al has a very good one arm push up but that was the most impressive thing I saw.

 

Let's not be too harsh on the course, though. I don't think Coach would consider it decent, and I think the biggest benefit to anyone hearing about this from our forums is the reminder of quality of what we have.

[Robert Del Popolo]

please dont miss out on this gold while its still in their forum

http://kbforum.dragondoor.com/showthread.php?t=153986

its a critic against this POS seminar

[Kim Jongseong]

Looks like KallosThenos had a hard time alone on the forum. They were not debating. Their overpriced calisthenics guardians just wanted to hear what they want. 

[RawStrength]

Looks like KallosThenos had a hard time alone on the forum. They were not debating. Their overpriced calisthenics guardians just wanted to hear what they want. 

 

 Yeah I feel sorry for KallosThenos, he's fighting alone against a horde of brain-washed fools .

[RawStrength]

Yeah, sounds like they know what they're talking about. As AlexX said, for $2k I'd expect much higher quality instructors. 

Yeah they hype their products way too much, like: Do the Pushups and you will build GODLY strength and COLOSSAL power and forge an ARMOR PLATED chest and TITANIUM STEEL triceps.

[Joshua Naterman]

I'm just waiting for my verification email to come in so that I can point out to that Easey Jack guy that kavadlo's "Olympic Medalist" won her medals in rowing, and won them in 1996, when he was in high school, and 2000 when he was still in college working on his ENGLISH DEGREE! WHAT?! WHAAAAT?????

 

No formal education in musculoskeletal physiology at all.

 

Having said that, I knew about 75-80% of what I know now before I went to school, but that 20-25% makes a biiiiiiig difference. BIG.

 

CSCS is not a bad cert, and he has that, and that's a good thing. Without actually seeing HOW he teaches these things, it's impossible for me to say anything about the limits to and extent of his knowledge or abilities as a trainer. That very lack of quality control, meaning that there's no way to know what he knows, is just ridiculous when looking at the price tag. He may be very good, and if he is able to teach you all the ins and outs of avoiding injury, retraining bad patterns, and proper progression for even basic stuff like pull ups, squats, sit ups and push ups it would be worth at least $500 to learn these things, because almost no one teaches ALL of this stuff correctly, but $1000-$2000? You have GOT to be kidding me.

 

However: I can't stand anyone trying to latch onto a damn Olympic Athlete 10+ years after their competitive career ended. That disgusts me. I just vomited on my keyboard.

 

And, finally, what is that garbage "Man test?" 50% of the GSU gym, at least, could pass that nonsense. He's turning loose a bunch of amateurs and diluting professionalism across the entire field, in my opinion. You can't have someone barely pass basic, high-leverage, bilateral strength-endurance and then go certify them to go teach much more advanced unilateral feats of strength+balance with a clear conscience. Well... I can't, at any rate.

[RawStrength]

Agree with everything Josh. KallosThenos could use your help too. Coach's seminar is much more reasonable considering his credentials and achievements.

[Brian Li]

Those ignorant brain-washed idiots that were bashing KallosThenos were probably the ones who purchased into the scam and wanted to justify their choice, at least one of them was apparently. Al Kavadlo is a decent and encouraging guy and may be a good personal trainer, but in the calisthenics and GST field, he hasn't really accomplished anything really that advanced and doesn't really know that much on how to properly train some of the gymnastics strength exercises if he thought he could get a perfect planche by progressing with bent arms unlike Coach Sommer who has real credentials in this field and has produced national champions. So having his workshop cost more than Coach's seminars is very much a scam!

[RawStrength]

Those ignorant brain-washed idiots that were bashing KallosThenos were probably the ones who purchased into the scam and wanted to justify their choice, at least one of them was apparently. Al Kavadlo is a decent and encouraging guy and may be a good personal trainer, but in the calisthenics and GST field, he hasn't really accomplished anything really that advanced and doesn't really know that much on how to properly train some of the gymnastics strength exercises if he thought he could get a perfect planche by progressing with bent arms unlike Coach Sommer who has real credentials in this field and has produced national champions. So having his workshop cost more than Coach's seminars is very much a scam!

100% agreed. The Kavadlo brothers are way over-hyped and over-rated. They are good at marketing themselves though I have to admit. Coach's stuff blows them out of the water.

[emos]

I don't see the problem with this. Of course you can learn about all that stuff online "for free", just like you can learn about absolutely anything else for free if you know where to look. But people still go to college, or get music lessons, or take language classes, or sign up to a gymnastics course, go to various sports and fitness seminars. The point is having hands-on and person-to-person training in something, which is completely different to watching YT and reading books.

[Brian Li]

I don't see the problem with this. Of course you can learn about all that stuff online "for free", just like you can learn about absolutely anything else for free if you know where to look. But people still go to college, or get music lessons, or take language classes, or sign up to a gymnastics course, go to various sports and fitness seminars. The point is having hands-on and person-to-person training in something, which is completely different to watching YT and reading books.

That's true, but the outrage is that this workshop is way overpriced and the instruction given out may not even be close to what Coach or other true experts in this field would give.

[Joshua Naterman]

If you think that Coach is the kind of person that would stoop to nonsense like that, you have never met the man.

 

Kallos Thenos used to be a member here, if I remember correctly, and he is absolutely out of line in a lot of ways.

 

Kavadlo's probably a really nice guy, and probably a good trainer as well, and I have no interest in bashing him. I think he's done a good job with himself and his brother, and I think that if he can market it then why not?

 

If people want to pay too much money for something like PCC then hey, let them empty their wallets.

 

I don't like the fact that he purposefully omits the true nature of his trainer-client relationship with the FORMER Olympian. Nothing against her, nothing against him, but don't you dare f-ing try to pass someone else's hard work off as a product of your own knowledge, because it isn't. It would be honest if he said that a former Olympian, and a medalist at that, loves his training. If she wants to give sound bytes about how she would have been better with his training or whatever, that's all up to them and their integrity. If she truly believes that, and it might be true for all we know, then that's fine.

 

Edit: His main page doesn't make the distinction, but the client page does. Still misleading in my opinion, but that's marketing for you I guess.

 

I also take issue with his assertion that his group of 20+ years of personal training somehow has more training time and knowledge than a man who has been developing high level gymnasts from the ground up, literally, for 30+ years. That's a huge pile, and John Du Cane (if he truly had integrity) would have pointed out that Coach Sommer, at the very least, has as much or more experience in this regard, and that they are focusing on calisthenics and not strict gymnastics. I wouldn't have had a problem with that, but seriously... Al Kavadlo clearly didn't even try to read up on the names being mentioned. That is also completely unprofessional. I believe that someone trying to market himself as a professional should be held to a high standard of professional conduct.

 

To be fair, pure GB is pretty niche as well. I think that will change as time goes on, but as it stands right now we are just one very high quality island in an ocean with many other islands, though to be sure none can compare in terms of pure Gymnastic Strength Training™ knowledge.

 

We are what we are, and many of us do other things, and I don't see any reason to put down the stuff that all the calisthenics crews are doing because they're having fun and making themselves healthy, strong, and happy. They have their own ways, their own likings, and their own goals.

 

Where we should strive to step in is when they want to accomplish a true planche, or planche press to HS, or to develop true ring strength like what they see on TV every 4 years. When they start looking for that, they will come here, probably after being pointed our way by someone, and we should welcome them without making some kind of "GB is better than your Calisthenics" argument.

[emos]

Yes, quite. I think it's extremely bad form to rubbish other people's products, especially when Coach Sommer takes such a hard-line on promotion of competitors on here (quite reasonably, of course). It's always a bit strange when you find the occasoinal person elsewhere so very, very enthusiastically promoting Coach Sommer and this forum, repeatedly dropping the names. And then you have members here like "RawStrength" who signed up yesterday just to say how awesome Coach Sommer is and how much better GB seminars are. It does make you wonder.

 

Few people who've been in the game for very long end up with such strong attachments to a particular school, once they see the bigger picture.

Al Kavaldo responded in a very appropriate manner. This whole thing is in very poor taste.

Of all the mis-sold and useless products out there in the world, why get so upset about exercise seminars that deal with similar things to our own interests but in a slightly different way? Is GB really the only morally correct way to do bodyweight work? Who are we trying to convince, them or ourselves?

[RawStrength]

Yeah true, I wouldn't spend that much money for what is offered there though lol!

[RawStrength]

Yes, quite. I think it's extremely bad form to rubbish other people's products, especially when Sommer takes such a hard-line on promotion of competitors on here (quite reasonably, of course). It's always a bit strange when you find the occasoinal person elsewhere so very, very enthusiastically promoting Sommer and this forum, repeatedly dropping the names. And then you have members here like "RawStrength" who signed up yesterday just to say how awesome Sommer is and how much better GB seminars are. It does make you wonder.

 

Few people who've been in the game for very long end up with such strong attachments to a particular school, once they see the bigger picture.

Al Kavaldo responded in a very appropriate manner. This whole thing is in very poor taste.

Of all the mis-sold and useless products out there in the world, why get so upset about exercise seminars that deal with similar things to our own interests but in a slightly different way? Is GB really the only morally correct way to do bodyweight work? Who are we trying to convince, them or ourselves?

lol I've been lurking for awhile, just decided to sign up recently. I search for everything bodyweight related.

[Joshua Naterman]

Emos, I totally agree.

 

We are a very specific school of bodyweight conditioning, and the things that Gymnastic Bodies focuses on, which is quite a lot since gymnastics is quite extensive, start simple and branch off into a whole lot of different things that provide an incredible foundation.

 

For some things, like straight arm strength, ring strength, and gymnastic-specific conditioning in general, we easily have the best programming, and that is why we are GYMNASTIC bodies!

 

There's nothing wrong with the Bar-barians, or any other crew, it is simply a fair statement when anyone here says that their training will not lead to high quality gymnastic strength. Sure, you'll get strong, and you'll have fun, so if you don't care about being able to do a perfectly straight planche then does it really matter?

 

The people who come here and stay here want two things:

 

1) A very organized system that allows them to learn to be strong in the same way as gymnasts are

 

2) Strict quality control on form.

 

There's no moral superiority here, but it is fair to say that we have the highest quality developmental gymnastics training information available anywhere, online or offline, and when you're trying to reproduce gymnast strength and ability, gymnastic bodies is where you want to be.