Front lever progress has me worried

[Eric Kamhi]

Ive been training on the rings for almost a year now, and while I've progressed leaps in some areas, the front lever remains very difficult to pull off.

I am not able to progress further than the flat tuck without absolutely failing to keep my back flat. I've gotten a lot better on front lever rows, ice cream makers and whatnots and have been getting better and doing slow descents from inverted hangs and trying to stall at a front lever position.

But still during FSP work. I can hardly progress past the flat tuck. Currently I am doing 20 sec flat tuck x 4 sets in my fps. I tried to move onto one leg out variation but my butt either hangs too low, I'm not fully horizontal but more at an upwards angle, or my arms just give out after five to ten seconds.

I'm only worried since this progression is taking much longer than any other fsp work and I seem to be stalling. Is this normal, or should I be trying something different?

[Daniel Burnham]

Take a video and show us your form.

I'm betting you are trying to hard to retract try holding a hollow body position. Though don't roll the shoulders forward and protract your scapulae like in planche. It is impossible to reach full retraction in the full front lever position.

[Eric Kamhi]

Yes, I'm not in a hollow position in levers. Things get much much easier in hollow in both front and back lever. However I do focus really hard to keep my shoulders and upper back retracted, and I don't let them protract as that makes the whole back sag. I am trying to keep my hips and pelvis straight however not hollow (I thought that was the way to go).

Hollow makes it easier in some regards but still works my upper back where I feel weak and not strong enough for full/half lever. Pictures are very tough to pull off for me. Will try to see if I can mash something up but I would not hold my breath.

Should I just train the front lever in a hollow position until strong enough and then try to straighten the hips out?

Thanks so much for the feedbacks by the way.

[Blairbob]

How strong is your L?

Can do you do a body lever?

How many skin the cats can you do? err, 360 pulls.

[Eric Kamhi]

My L sit work is 4x20 sec holds. My max is 40 secs in L sit.

I can do body levers no problem. I train them twice a week but not as static. My regular work sets are 3 sets of 10 reps in body lever, very slow ascent and descent (3-4 sec each way). The weak part in my front lever is not my core but more my upper back/shoulders. I cant keep the lever position as my arms give out, not because my core is weak (relatively speaking).

360 pulls depends on the body form. I can do 2-3 reps max in the position of a half lever (back/hips straight and knees bent), I can do sets of 6/8 if I am doing flat tuck 360 pulls.

Front lever rows (ice cream makers) I do about 3 sets of 8 in full lever position and try to keep things slow and in control.

[Blairbob]

Hmm, not bad but not great.

What's your height and weight?

L is kind of weak IMO. I never really got into working half lever or flat tuck 360s. When I could hold a momentary FL around 5'1 and 165 I was able to do anywhere from a dozen to 15 skin the cats in a pike. More so I lacked the pull power. My student Erik could pull off a better FL and could do in excess of 20 skin the cats but his L was not as good as mine (and he really hated them). Mine was 90s+ and his was about 30-45 if I lied to him about the true time on the stopwatch. Also bare in mind he was 10 or 11 and 55lbs at the time and a runt.

What's your max weighted pullup or pullup progression and numbers?

[Eric Kamhi]

I'm 182 cm and 78-79 kg

My L Sit is not as strong as I would like it to be but I am having trouble increasing the hold time. Since January my reps went form 10 sec to 15 sec to 20 sec but thats in like 9 months so it feels very slow.

Just to be clear, when you say skin the cat you are talking about 360 pulls right? Or are they a 360 pull with no attention to form (basically going from hanging normal to a german hang with no regards to back/leg/body position)? I have not tried the latter, I try to keep my upward and downward motion in control and keep a challenging back/hip position (disadvantaged lever). For me there is a huge difference on difficulty between flat tuck and half lever in 360 pulls (both on the way up to inverted and back up from german hang are the toughest parts in half lever for me).

My pullup work is a little varied from week to week but I usually try do to 3 pullup exercises during my pull days of the week.

for example 3 sets of 3 supinated pullups on rings with 15 kg weight on me, Followed by 3 sets of 5 supinated reps on rings without the weight. This is then followed by ring rows in a tuck front lever position (3 sets of 5).

Another week it will look like:

3 sets of 8 ice cream makers, 3 sets of 5 pronated pullups on bar (bar to chest), 3 sets of 5 pronated wide rows on hanging bar with feet elevated.

I alternate the sets with leg work such a squats to cut down on rest times.

I really appreciate the feedback btw.

[Blairbob]

Skin the Cat is the older and more common name for a 360 pull. Technically you can do them in whatever body shape you want to. I generally do and coach them in either ball tuck or pike (extending to and from german hang).

Weighted pullup of 15kgx3 doesn't impress me much. However being able to do 360 pulls in half lever is impressive.

Flat tuck and half lever are different worlds. Flat tuck is a start of getting challenging while half lever is getting damn challenging.

Sounds like your biggest problem is the same as mine currently. Lack of beastly pull strength. Right now I can do maybe 15 pronated pullups (did this a few weeks ago "cold" at the USMC chin-up challenge). 15 is alright but not like BEAST. I haven't done weighted pullups in awhile but I'm probably back to 1/2 BW like I nearly was last year (165BW, 80-90lbs added).

[Eric Kamhi]

Yeah my pull strength is not impressive at all. It is cyclical though. Last march I focused on it a lot and I was doing 20kg added weight. Then I focused more on my FSP work and ring work and trained pullups less, and I'm down to 15 kg for proper form. For me at least it is one of those things that only improves if I am doing a LOT of work. And frankly with the amount of time spent in gym, I have to space things out more, and some things suffer.

Does pullup strength translate directly into the front lever weakness I have? Would Bodyweight rows not be more of a direct corrolation?

I'm seriously considering breaking up my workout and moving into a 4 day a week schedule as 3xweek makes me spend 2.5 hours at gym and even then I get very tired at the end and skimp on things.

[Daniel Burnham]

Does pullup strength translate directly into the front lever weakness I have? Would Bodyweight rows not be more of a direct corrolation?

Yes it does. Ive heard of a ton of people getting the front lever directly from pullups with minimal training in the lever itself. If you are focusing on the front lever I would be sure to do weighted pull-ups about twice a week. Back off of actually FL for maybe a week or two and do it only once a week to keep the skill fresh in mind. Then when your pullups get heavy give it another go.FL rows are also helpful but Ive found that not many people do them effectively.

[Blairbob]

Yeah, you will need to do more pulling.

Whether this is FL rows or weighted pullups. Either could be used, IMO. I'd advocate for both.

Body rows...no. That's nice and dandy but no. Good for keeping the shoulders healthy. But you need to do FL rows to make that BEAST strength.

Lots of rope climbing is good or rock climbing.

Hmm, 5' 11". Kind of on the tall side. Pull strength might be an issue if you had longish arms. OTOH, you are on the light side at just under 80kg. That explains why L work is such a pain for you. Hate on the hip flexors with presumably long(er) legs. Longer than my 5'1 legs.

[Brian Li]

Wait... so you can do half lay 360 pulls, but cannot hold a half lay or one leg out? That shouldn't be the case. Were your arms locked the whole time in your 360 pulls? If you could pull through the isometric angle in a concentric pull then you should be more than strong enough to hold at that angle.

The one leg out and one leg tucked in like in ball tucked is about the same difficulty as an adv tuck by the way, so maybe you can use that with the tucked leg more extended or just extend your legs a little more from your flat tuck.

[Coach Sommer]

... Ive heard of a ton of people getting the front lever directly from pullups with minimal training in the lever itself ...

I haven't.

They may claim that this is the case, however unless they are also doing alot of proper core preparation IME this approach will not work. If however their pulling strength is the sole weakness, it may have some merit.

Remember also that my own athletes do no weighted pull-ups at all; and they are far stronger than anyone else here.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[yuri marmerstein]

I wouldn't worry too much about it. Some people are naturally predisposed to getting front levers easy, especially those with skinny legs. Just keep at it and you will make progress. It is important to work on your weaknesses but you have to expect that some skills may come slower than others.

For example, I've been doing front lever work fairly regularly for years now and I still have trouble holding a straight front lever(I can get it on a good day but still needs work).

Some time ago I taught my friend some things to do to work on front levers. Within 6 months, he was holding a rock solid full lay front lever. With planche he is the opposite, and progresses really slow.

Some people are just naturally better at some of the positions. Don't despair, don't worry about how long it takes you, just be diligent with your work.

[Jason Stein]

If however their pulling strength is the sole weakness, it may have some merit.

Coach Sommer,

I understand you to have said there is no causation between weighted pull-ups and FL; that is, building up heavier weighted chins will not automatically grant a front lever.

In your experience is there some correlation or perhaps association?

I ask because a friend here at the gym achieved a full front level in approximately 3 weeks. His weighted chin is greater than bodyweight (175? I don't know for sure). He also subsequently achieved a one-arm chin in approximately 4 weeks.

Or is he just an outlier? His background is bodybuilding-style weightlifting and, believe it or not, golf.

best,

jason

[Mats Trane]

read this:

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=7681#p69077

[Blairbob]

Well, sounds like he is quite strong pulling wise. I'd guess if he learned a front lever that fast he had pretty good core strength as well.

If you can do one arm chins, you can probably do a FL. FL doesn't really require pullup strength of body +BW=added load.