MU transition and tricep strength correlation

[Brian Li]

Does the MU transition increase tricep extension strength? I know it stresses the triceps tendon and the same part of the elbows stressed in tricep presses, but I'm not sure if it actually builds tricep extension strength (never felt it in the triceps themselves). I used to do overhead DB tricep extensions to increase tricep strength, but now I mostly workout at home where I don't have heavy enough DBs and I was wondering if the MU transition itself can be considered a substitute and how effective would it be if it is.

I can do slow MUs really easily as well as hold a static wide MU transition at the hardest part with an upright torso and no false grip. Before, I worked my way up to being able to single arm tricep extend 25% of my bodyweight with a DB, I don't know if I can still press as much since it has been about 5 months ago when I've last gone to the gym.

To note, triceps and biceps are the only muscles I include isolation work for and I'm trying to increase my triceps strength to match my biceps strength which is probably twice as strong as my triceps. :oops:

[Karri Kytömaa]

I can't say for a certain how much the transition training would help, but I can tell that when I trained MUs, my triceps were the ones having overtraining issues. It made my elbows hurt and the pain was located on tricep tendon side. This was many months ago and I haven't really moved to training MUs yet, doing just some randoms for fun.

The strain put onto triceps in MUs is quite exceptional in that it requires huge tension during stretch. I'm not sure what kind of effects that has on strength or muscle growth, but I know it can make you extremely sore. (You can try pushups on some platforms, I got my chest sore for days)

Just looking for good triceps strength, you could work on russian dips or diamond pushups, or those forearms to ground pushups which really seems to stress in the same manners as MU.

And for what comes to disparity between your trips and biceps, it's quite normal to have 2 : 1 ratio in pulling to pushing. It probably shouldn't show so much in pure trips versus biceps but it's not too far.

[Brian Li]

Did you actually feel soreness or stress from the tricep muscles themselves or just the tendon and was that from the MU transitions or the dips?

Russian dips and diamond push-ups are too easy for me to do any good. The sphinx push-ups with full elbow flexion are pretty challenging for me and I do those from time to time, but they're only difficult at the very bottom. I'm hoping MU transitions which I do almost every day can build or maintain a high degree of triceps strength since I occasionally use the full elbow flexion sphinx push-ups and pretty much nothing else for triceps.

As for the disparity, I thought the triceps were supposed to be stronger than the biceps since it has 3 heads and is a bigger muscle group.

[Brian Li]

Anyone else know about MU transition and tricep strength relation? More replies about this would be much appreciated.

[Joshua Naterman]

As far as what MU transition builds, not a huge amount simply because the triceps aren't the primary muscles under stress for very long, only the middle part of the transition.

As far as what it takes to be able to do that, it depends on how much lean you put into your MU.

No matter what, diamond push ups done slowly are excellent elbow prep as long as you go down to where your chest touches your hands. Obviously this can be built up to over time.

The next thing to do would be to put your hands on a yoga block or other raised object so that the floor is not there to support anything but the hands, and after that you'd take two blocks and start moving your hands out towards your shoulders. When you can safely rep out these wide hand-to-shoulder push ups at a slow pace your elbows will, without question, not be your limiting factor in muscle ups.

It is a good thing to keep this in mind: A lot of what you are doing is reducing the golgi tendon reflex. The other thing you are doing, which is why you need to progress somewhat slowly with these, is exposing the muscles and the common tricep insertion tendon to large stresses which will eventually make the connective tissue much stronger (as long as you aren't pushing ahead too quickly).

This is not the same thing as building bigger or stronger triceps: it is simply making it safe (and possible) for your body to use more of the triceps strength that you have. Yes, your triceps will become capable of doing more work and producing more force in the MU transition, but a lot of this will be neurological adaptation. Actual tissue building will happen too, but at a much slower rate.

[Brian Li]

It seems that my post and Rik's post has been lost from the server update.

Here was my post:

Ah that makes sense. Thanks for the information, Josh!

I do holds from mid-transition of MU every day for the triceps tendon and elbow stress and I was hoping it would also build or maintain a lot of triceps muscle strength. Now that I know it doesn't, I will still do them just to strengthen that connective tissue.

For anyone who may be interested, I created a harder variation of the diamond push-up. Its done by having the forearms lay on the floor and then initiate the push with the triceps. Its difficulty is similar to that of the sphinx push-ups from full elbow flexion.

[Brian Li]

and after that you'd take two blocks and start moving your hands out towards your shoulders. When you can safely rep out these wide hand-to-shoulder push ups...

Are these with the forearms on the ground and hands slighly in front of the shoulders? If they are then they're sphinx push-ups with full elbow flexion at the bottom and these are tough and possibly the hardest push-up for the triceps.

[Joshua Naterman]

and after that you'd take two blocks and start moving your hands out towards your shoulders. When you can safely rep out these wide hand-to-shoulder push ups...

Are these with the forearms on the ground and hands slighly in front of the shoulders? If they are then they're sphinx push-ups with full elbow flexion at the bottom and these are tough and possibly the hardest push-up for the triceps.

No. Forearms should be floating just off the ground at the lowest point. You can touch them at the bottom if you need to at first, but that should be a temporary thing.

The further forward your hands go, up to a point, the harder the push up gets for the triceps. Be smart and move slowly

I don't know what a sphinx push up is, so I just watched youtube. That would be a very, very beginner version. I honestly think that's a much less useful step than starting with diamonds and just slowly moving the hands apart towards the shoulders, but whatever works!

[Brian Li]

No. Forearms should be floating just off the ground at the lowest point. You can touch them at the bottom if you need to at first, but that should be a temporary thing.

The further forward your hands go, up to a point, the harder the push up gets for the triceps. Be smart and move slowly

I don't know what a sphinx push up is, so I just watched youtube. That would be a very, very beginner version. I honestly think that's a much less useful step than starting with diamonds and just slowly moving the hands apart towards the shoulders, but whatever works!

Your description sounds just like the sphinx push-ups I've described, but without having forearms planted on the ground at the bottom. I actually feel that pressing up with the forearms and elbows on the ground is a lot harder than from them floating off the ground. The initial push is just much harder for me when the forearms are planted and it gets easy after that initial push.

Are the hands supposed to point forward and elbows point back in your version? Could you also make a video of your triceps push-up if you have the time because I'm not completely sure what your version is supposed to look like and I thought it just sounded too similar to the sphinx push-ups I was talking about. So I'm not sure if I got your version right.

About the diamonds push-ups being harder than sphinx push-ups, I would have to disagree with that because I can rep full range diamonds like nothing and I can only do a few full range sphinx push-ups when I'm fresh. The shoulders are more involved in the diamonds then in sphinx push-ups since there is much more shoulder flexion going on in diamonds. I see many people on youtube do sphinx push-ups with a 90 degree angle at the elbows instead of from full elbow flexion and also people erroneously calling tiger push-ups (easy exercise) as sphinx push-ups. So perhaps maybe you only saw those versions on youtube?

[Rik de Kort]

My question, which got lost in the server move, was:

The next thing to do would be to put your hands on a yoga block or other raised object so that the floor is not there to support anything but the hands,

You put your hands off the floor, and now the floor is only there to support the hands?

Don't you mean put the feet on a yoga block?

[Joshua Naterman]

I may be a poor judge of these things, as my triceps are pretty strong. I have recently found out that (possibly due in part to my having torn some deep spinal muscles yesterday) that back lever is a lot harder than I thought it was when I first started, because I am a whole heck of a lot weaker now than I was when I first found this site due to my 8 year battle with my shoulders.

I had back lever within 6 weeks of starting and FL full lay for 8-10s around 4-5 months in. Now even tuck BL feels extremely difficult, and so I realize that there are a number of things that I just don't have a good perspective on. These may be one.

If you are rocking forward then I think you are probably right, but if you keep heels against the wall then I don't think there's much of a difficulty change apart from the fact that the further forward your hands are, up to a point, the harder the triceps have to work. If your elbows are beneath your shoulders then in my opinion they are too far forward for this to be particularly effective as MU prehab but I may be wrong about that as well. I just don't feel any added benefit. That may not be the case for everyone.

Rik: I mean that I just elevate my hands on yoga blocks or weight plates or a bench so that my forearms never get the chance to touch the ground. My favorite is two benches, one for feet and one for hands, but there are usually too many people at the gym for me to find two open benches.

Remember, tricep strength at 90 degrees doesn't mean a whole lot because in a muscle up you have a whole lot more elbow flexion than that. It is that lengthened position of the triceps that your body has to become accustomed to, which is why I prefer hands/wrists under shoulders as my main hand position.

You can also move these wider to sort of get a feel for wide MU and the internal rotation + scapular control you need for a wide MU (or your lack thereof).

[Brian Li]

I'm sorry, but I still don't really understand how to do your triceps exercise in your latest post. When you said on benches I thought you meant tricep extensions with your body rather than push-ups, but then you said it could be done on yoga blocks or weight plates which would be too low and have no clearance for the head to do tricep extensions. Did you actually mean doing the push-ups I called sphinx push-ups with the hands elevated and forearms off the ground or are you talking about doing a MU transition movement followed by a push-up with your hands elevated? Is there a video or article about this exercise you're talking about?

Again, sorry for all the questions, but I'm still confused. :?

[Joshua Naterman]

I'm sorry, but I still don't really understand how to do your triceps exercise in your latest post. When you said on benches I thought you meant tricep extensions with your body rather than push-ups, but then you said it could be done on yoga blocks or weight plates which would be too low and have no clearance for the head to do tricep extensions. Did you actually mean doing the push-ups I called sphinx push-ups with the hands elevated and forearms off the ground or are you talking about doing a MU transition movement followed by a push-up with your hands elevated? Is there a video or article about this exercise you're talking about?

Again, sorry for all the questions, but I'm still confused. :?

There are no videos I am aware of, as I made this up. I am sure I'm not the only one, but I have no idea how to search for something that I didn't find anywhere!

I will make a video this weekend. A short one!

[Blairbob]

Yep, mucked up = BL being difficult. Lots of back strength necessary for it. That's why having a strong DL makes BL easier. And in general, if you have a strong DL, you are strong period.

[Brian Li]

There are no videos I am aware of, as I made this up. I am sure I'm not the only one, but I have no idea how to search for something that I didn't find anywhere!

I will make a video this weekend. A short one!

Thanks! Can't wait to see how it looks like and I'm sure many other people would too. I guess we can call it the Naterman triceps push-up.

Yep, mucked up = BL being difficult. Lots of back strength necessary for it. That's why having a strong DL makes BL easier. And in general, if you have a strong DL, you are strong period.

Would the BL also develop strong traps too?

[Brian Li]

I also have a question that relates to the MU, but am not sure if it's worth starting a thread for. My question is how do we develop the strength and/or technique for the wide no-lean Aguilar style MU?

I'm guessing the technique would be to start widening the arms when you get to the middle of the transition while adducting? If that is the case then I think I might be able to do it already if I wasn't restricted by the width of my doorframe (I have my rings hung on a doorway chin-up bar).

[Joshua Naterman]

You might. It is a bodyweight internal rotation at ~90 degrees of elbow flexion and shoulder flexion with nearly full horizontal abduction.

If you can, you are extremely strong.

As this is a bit of a more advanced (as far as muscle ups go, anyways) maneuver we are mostly kicking around talk for this in Graduate studies.

Putting too much information out to the general public just ends up confusing people. I used to think that was an excuse for keeping things proprietary but after seeing how many times my 'clarifications' require much more extensive clarification that then leads to long threads full of confusion I believe that in many cases it is worth keeping this kind of discussion restricted to people who have already been to the seminars and therefore have a good understanding of how things are supposed to go up to this point.

[Brian Li]

Well, I think I'm pretty strong at the MU transition and internal rotation. I can hold the middle of the transition with my forearms pointing straight forward (so ~70 degrees elbow flexion) for 7+ seconds with an upright torso and normal grip and am able to pull back to the bottom of a dip from there as well with a little bit of forward lean. I can almost get to the middle of the transition from the bottom in a slow MU with a normal grip and I can do slow wide and narrow MUs with very little lean when using a false grip. So I'm not sure if that is enough, but I hope I'm not that far off to be able to pull off a no lean wide MU.

So one way to build the strength for the no lean wide MU is to keep working the transition with progressively wider arms or adding extra weight to the MUs?

I understand what you mean by disclosing too much info out that can confuse people who never went to the seminars and that the info may be exclusive to the seminars and Coach's upcoming books, so I won't ask too much about it.

Is there anyone here from the GB forums or seminars who can do the no lean wide MU besides the few advanced gymnasts we have here ofcourse? How's your triceps push-up video coming along as well?