Shoulder Health

[alec_ar]

I have some questions in regards to keeping the shoulders in tip top shape. Many of the ring strength elements require protracted shoulder blades and since most of Americans already have some shoulder issue such as scapular winging, I think it's important to always include complementary exercises with whatever you train, to keep the shoulder girdle happy!

In terms of keeping an appropriately conditioned retracted shoulder girdle, what are some ideal exercises? Lately I have been using weighted wide grip pull ups with a focus on an intense contraction of my scapulae, but I'm not sure if this is good agnostic work for the protraction strength moves...so far it feels like its doing wonders for my shoulder comfort and mobility, does anybody more knowledgeable than myself have any insight? Are there any good exercises that require both external rotation and scapular retraction? Im not good with anatomy....

[Andrew Long]

I wouldn't have a clue really but I read every where that manna work is good for balancing out the shoulders. maybe through in some sort of rows * bulgarian front lever stuff?* I see you are doing some victorian work I imagine that would help and also a move I have used while I was doing some intense rock climbing for the external rotation was laying on my left side with my right arm bent at the elbow 90 degrees with a very light weight in hand which I then lift from the floor rotating my shoulder until my arm is almost in line with my body then lowering again all the time keeping the elbow bent 90 degrees and resting on my side without moving it.

hopefully someone with more knowledge about this sort of thing will chip in but those seem like enough to me =D I really need to focus more on my external rotation and traps in particular as I think they are definitely my weak point

[Joshua Naterman]

It is sometimes a mistake to try and combine multiple movements, because sometimes combinations simply don't work well. If you are concentrating on external rotation at the shoulder, slow rows can be a good exercise. You will find that they work much better the slower you go... I never go faster than 505 when using them for this purpose.

A variety of upper back and external rotation work will usually work best, but the most important thing is that you FEEL the correct muscles working. If you don't feel it, they aren't working.

[Andrew Long]

hey josh what would you suggest for strengthening my traps and stretching out the pecs im tired of my shoulders having that slight rolled forward position. Want them pulled back and straight I thought all the climbing I have done would help but it really hasn't changed anything.

[Erik Sjolin]

I'm really glad someone else has the same issue as me (jeez, that sounds horrible ). I've been trying to fix my winging scapula and atrocious shoulder flexibility ever since I started.

One thing I tried yesterday (gonna see how well it works) is lying on my back and trying to force my scaps into proper position while trying to stretch my arms over my head. Granted, right now there's about a 30 degree angle between my arms and the floor, but I did feel some muscle activation in the trapezius. Good idea, bad idea?

[alec_ar]

Thanks for the input guys!

@ausswe, the only thing is the Victorian is a protracting move and develops massive protraction strength! So my retraction always tends to lag...the manna suggestion was good, I also read it does wonders for balancing out the shoulder after planche and Maltese work for example. Thanks for reminding me to throw manna work in more often.

@Josh, so essentially, if I'm doing wide grip pull ups and conciously feeling my shoulder blades squeeze together at the top of the rep, that's likely to help even out some of the straight arm strength work? Btw I just wanna throw this out there, you moderators should get paid for your knowledge!

[thenail01]

So, starting with the typical Western over-developed pecs, slouched/poor posture/internally rotated shoulders, etc. and barely being able to interlace my hands behind my back with locked elbows... to training swinging elements so far, knock on wood, injury free... I think I can offer some perspective.

I might try to video my shoulder/scapular routine, but I don't really want to take a video camera to the gym.

A few of the highlights - arm circles small to large to small with palms up and palms down using bands anchored away from you then toward you. Strive to maintain full ROM, should totally cramp up initially. There's also Ido's shoulder routine which is obviously good and his scapular protraction/retraction isometric holds on the stall bars... you can use bands as needed around your butt to work up to it.

Skin the cat

Sit on a stability ball face up, basically bridged over it with the ball essentially centered behind your neck/upper thoracic spine and grab a bar anchored as close to the ground as possible. Straighten your elbows with your hands as close as possible.

Sit on your butt palms towards ground behind your back holding a band... works best if your hands are on furniture sliders and you're on carpeting... melt backwards maintaining chest up as far as comfortable then start PNF style stretching - relax into comfortable range for 20-30secs, isometrically contract ~5s, slide deeper, repeat.

There's some good stuff on sanfrancisco crossfit's mobility project youtube page. Obviously Coach's recent videos of dorsal pushups and shoulder mobility are great.

You can use weights to work on scap stabilization while you do other stretching - like for instance 'reverse triangle' yoga pose and hold like a 25lb plate over head.

Simply hang on the rings. Hang on the rings with small leg circles in each direction. Hang on the rings and try to do small flares essentially with your feet.

Bands + inlocates/inlocates, etc.

[Brian Li]

@ausswe, the only thing is the Victorian is a protracting move and develops massive protraction strength! So my retraction always tends to lag...the manna suggestion was good, I also read it does wonders for balancing out the shoulder after planche and Maltese work for example. Thanks for reminding me to throw manna work in more often.

I think your supposed to retract for Victorian just like for front lever so it shouldn't be a protraction move and besides gravity will force you to protract since you're body is facing up and so you wouldn't really build protraction strength. Even Danny Rodrigues retracts for the Victorian. Protraction is for planche and maltese where gravity would force you to retract in those positions.

Two exercises I know that work both external rotation and scap retraction are Bulgarian rows and reverse flys. Cuban rotations from the Cuban press are for external rotators and I heard that you should build up to being able to do those with 50% of bodyweight for reps.

[Joshua Naterman]

I'm really glad someone else has the same issue as me (jeez, that sounds horrible ). I've been trying to fix my winging scapula and atrocious shoulder flexibility ever since I started.

One thing I tried yesterday (gonna see how well it works) is lying on my back and trying to force my scaps into proper position while trying to stretch my arms over my head. Granted, right now there's about a 30 degree angle between my arms and the floor, but I did feel some muscle activation in the trapezius. Good idea, bad idea?

If you want to fix winging scaps, one of the easiest things to do is to deeply palpate the insertion points of serratus anterior. It should not be comfortable... sometimes it will tickle and sometimes it will be somewhat painful, but palpate the first inch or two of the attachment on each rib. After that, do scapular push ups. You will now easily be able to find and use the serratus, and you will feel your shoulder blades suck into proper position as you correct the muscle activation.

Over time, this will become second nature, but you will probably have to use the muscle activation technique described above to assist you for a while. FIngertips braced with the opposite hand can really help with the required pressure, but so can the knob on a baseball bat or anything else you want to use to get the required palpations done right.

You can use this technique for pretty much any muscle you need to wake up.

You only need to briefly palpate... If you were doing this to the pecs, for example, this should only take around 10 seconds.

On serratus anterior, maybe 15-20 seconds are required per side. Depends entirely on how quickly you can get the job done.

The point is that this is not a deep massage that keeps going on and on, it is a brief stimulation of densely innervated tissue to facilitate muscle activation. Don't stop to massage knots if you find them. Do that after the workout.

[Erik Sjolin]

I'm really glad someone else has the same issue as me (jeez, that sounds horrible ). I've been trying to fix my winging scapula and atrocious shoulder flexibility ever since I started.

One thing I tried yesterday (gonna see how well it works) is lying on my back and trying to force my scaps into proper position while trying to stretch my arms over my head. Granted, right now there's about a 30 degree angle between my arms and the floor, but I did feel some muscle activation in the trapezius. Good idea, bad idea?

If you want to fix winging scaps, one of the easiest things to do is to deeply palpate the insertion points of serratus anterior. It should not be comfortable... sometimes it will tickle and sometimes it will be somewhat painful, but palpate the first inch or two of the attachment on each rib. After that, do scapular push ups. You will now easily be able to find and use the serratus, and you will feel your shoulder blades suck into proper position as you correct the muscle activation.

Over time, this will become second nature, but you will probably have to use the muscle activation technique described above to assist you for a while. FIngertips braced with the opposite hand can really help with the required pressure, but so can the knob on a baseball bat or anything else you want to use to get the required palpations done right.

You can use this technique for pretty much any muscle you need to wake up.

You only need to briefly palpate... If you were doing this to the pecs, for example, this should only take around 10 seconds.

On serratus anterior, maybe 15-20 seconds are required per side. Depends entirely on how quickly you can get the job done.

The point is that this is not a deep massage that keeps going on and on, it is a brief stimulation of densely innervated tissue to facilitate muscle activation. Don't stop to massage knots if you find them. Do that after the workout.

Thanks, Josh! Does this work as well for the tops of the scapula? That's the part that sticks out during pressing/overhead motion. I guess that would be the trapezius or rhomboid, right?

[alec_ar]

B1214N, yeah my bad. I read somewhere that VC was a protraction move so I've been starting my leans with protracted shoulder blades. But once I reach closer to parallel with my body, my scapulae naturally retract. That was my misunderstanding.

[Joshua Naterman]

Erik:

Yes, you will need to palpate the nuchal line on the skull, from the outside to the center and then down to about C4 or so, and then from the outer third of the collarbone around to the acromion and the first third of the spine of the scapula.

You may find that a lacrosse ball or a partner helps a lot with this one.

A wide edged gua sha type instrument can be very effective as well for this area.

[Erik Sjolin]

Erik:

Yes, you will need to palpate the nuchal line on the skull, from the outside to the center and then down to about C4 or so, and then from the outer third of the collarbone around to the acromion and the first third of the spine of the scapula.

You may find that a lacrosse ball or a partner helps a lot with this one.

A wide edged gua sha type instrument can be very effective as well for this area.

Thanks again. I got a lacrosse ball a while ago, but mostly been using it for rolling around on my serratus and upper trapezius every other day without really knowing what I'm doing. ( ). Looks like I have a bit of research and work ahead of me.