Vayzenshtat Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 I find front levers on a bar to be significantly harder than on rings. Is this normal? Does anyone have advice for doing front levers on bars? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Naterman Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Practice! I bet you saw that coming though.They are a little different, you are locked into position with a bar while rings can move to adjust to your strongest position. Overall I don't notice any difference, but everyone is different! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vayzenshtat Posted March 19, 2012 Author Share Posted March 19, 2012 Yea I did. I guess I'm just too used to rings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WitnessTheFitness Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 I don't consider one harder than the other, just a matter of what you're used to. If the bar you're using is a different width than your rings then that can have an effect, though; the pullup bar at my gym is twice as thin as my rings are, and my front lever is a lot weaker on it since I can't activate the same grip and pulling strength that I can on rings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin de Jesus Ponce Robaldino Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Well i have never tried any kind of lever on rings, i've always done them in bar... i did it this way cause i want to achieve them before taking them into my rings training.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
learningtofly Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 FL was always harder for me on bar...I "have" a (short) full one on rings, but it seems like NO WAY on bar. I guess there's something to do with right scapular activation, especially lower traps, because when I'm able to lock them in advanced tuck then if feels the same on rings or bar... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evilllamas Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 My bar I do my front levers and back levers on is very thin- I find all movements easier on a thicker bar (slightly narrower than a fireman's pole)A thin bar is harder to hang on imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vayzenshtat Posted March 21, 2012 Author Share Posted March 21, 2012 I'm also wondering if any of you had some carryover between OAC training and front levers. I always believed that there would be, but I've never noticed any carryover between the two skills. When I was able to do an OAC I could not hold a front lever. I've stopped training the OAC because of an injury and decided to train front levers instead. I gained 15lbs in that time period and can now hold a front lever, but I am very far from doing an OAC again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Branson Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Carryover would be minimal. Look at the motion and positions they are very different. Where you could see some carryover is in stability.15lbs bodyweight increase is a huge impact on doing OAC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Li Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Carryover would be minimal. Look at the motion and positions they are very different. Where you could see some carryover is in stability.15lbs bodyweight increase is a huge impact on doing OAC.I would have to disagree. It could be different for everyone, but when I was able to hold a front lever for about 7 seconds I attempted a OAP and was able to do 1 on my right arm without specifically training for it and I have never done weighted pull-ups before. I have only attempted OAPs a few times before that when I only had the strength to hold a 2-4 second front lever and that was when I could only do a half range of motion OAP from dead hang on each arm. I've done only a few sets of assisted OAPs total spread throughout a week before increasing my strength for the front lever hold to ~ 7 seconds using FL specific holds and exercises. So the sufficient strength gained to do a OAP has to be attributed to my strengthening of the front lever itself. Moreover, I have heard that some people who have strong weighted pull-ups could do a FL without having prior training and weighted pull-ups have high correlation to OAPs/OACs, so overall there has to be moderate to high carryover (depending on person) between the FL and OACs despite the two moves looking different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Naterman Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Carryover would be minimal. Look at the motion and positions they are very different. Where you could see some carryover is in stability.15lbs bodyweight increase is a huge impact on doing OAC.I would have to disagree. It could be different for everyone, but when I was able to hold a front lever for about 7 seconds I attempted a OAP and was able to do 1 on my right arm without specifically training for it and I have never done weighted pull-ups before. I have only attempted OAPs a few times before that when I only had the strength to hold a 2-4 second front lever and that was when I could only do a half range of motion OAP from dead hang on each arm. I've done only a few sets of assisted OAPs total spread throughout a week before increasing my strength for the front lever hold to ~ 7 seconds using FL specific holds and exercises. So the sufficient strength gained to do a OAP has to be attributed to my strengthening of the front lever itself. Moreover, I have heard that some people who have strong weighted pull-ups could do a FL without having prior training and weighted pull-ups have high correlation to OAPs/OACs, so overall there has to be moderate to high carryover (depending on person) between the FL and OACs despite the two moves looking different.Fl would carry over much more to OAC than OAC would carry over to FL, because OAC do not seriously train the triceps, which are an obvious weak point in many FL, while lats are THE prime mover in a OAC and are heavily trained by correct FL work. Having said that, there isn't as much carryover as you want to think unless both are trained together. Here is why:FL do not train elbow flexors, which are for obvious reasons limiting factors in OAC/OAP performance. However, elbow flexors don't need to be super strong to do OAC/OAP. Lats, however, do. To a lesser extent so do traps and rear delts.Whether you realize it or not, and this should be obvious to you, your lats and/or rear delts and/or traps were a weak point in your OAP and not elbow flexors. For this reason, the FL did help. You addressed a specific weak point and that made a big difference.On its own, having a strong FL has no effect on OAC or OAP because it does not train the elbow flexion portion of the movement at all.On its own, having a strong OAC/OAP does not affect FL because it does not train the long head of the triceps (or any other heads) hardly at all.They each complement the other, but on their own are useless in accomplishing one or the other. An integrated training program that actually covers all your bases will of course provide far better results than any single focus, and that is what you experienced.It is very uncommon to find weight lifters who do not train their triceps pretty heavily, so people like me who were in the weight room doing heavy pull ups and chins are also doing heavy dips, heavy bench, heavy tricep extensions, etc. The combination is what made FL come to me very easily. If my triceps were weak I would have had a much harder time.Finally, you were clearly very strong to begin with, doing 1/2 rep OAPs from a dead hang. I highly doubt that you have done zero training for your elbow flexors, which don't have to be terribly strong to do OAC as many here have discovered and discussed in the thread on OAC and bicep curls, so again what happened was that you addressed a specific weak point. You could have done that many different ways.Anything that changes from person to person drastically, such as the ability to do OAC and FL together, is not due to differences in structure or anatomy. The differences from person to person are due to a deficiency in training or a lack of deficiency in training all of the muscles that contribute to each movement/position. If everyone had the same training background, same lifts performed the exact same way for the same sets/reps that those of us who easily got front levers trained, everyone would easily obtain FL.That is why the BtGB program works, it gives you what you need in all areas if you start at the beginning and follow the program correctly with good nutrition. Failure to do this is why some people are not getting what they want out of the program. I know this isn't on purpose, I am sure everyone is doing their best, but that's how it is. There is also a lot to be said for body position in movement, because strangely enough I have been making some interesting strength gains just with bodyweight chins and pull ups because I am now performing them with a rock solid hollow body + packed neck. Makes a massive, massive difference in difficulty and of course the corresponding strength increase that comes from performing the movements. I wish I had known this when I was younger.Anyhow, in the end if you are training OAC/OAP and FL together then you are basically performing heavy weighted pull ups and chins as well as tricep strength. We all know by now that this is a recipe to quickly enhance FL progress as well as OAC/OAP progress.Does that make sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Li Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Yes, that makes sense and I believe lat strength was my limiting factor for both the time for the front lever and the OAP. You are also correct that I have trained my elbow flexors, I used to do bicep curls during weight lifting before adopting Gymnastic Strength Training™. I was able to dumbbell curl 50lbs on each arm for a max and barbell curl 95lbs for 5+ reps at a bodyweight of 115lbs at the time I was able to do both of these. I see now that it was the weak link in my lats that I addressed through holding the front lever that enabled me to execute a full OAP. I think we can agree that there is some limited carryover (not sure how many percent, but I'm guessing up to 30%) between the two due to very strong lat strength needed for both and some posterior delt and triceps long head strength in both. It is also interesting that you are making strength gains in bodyweight pull-ups using a hollow body position and packed neck, is it strength gains in all muscle groups worked in a pull-up or a certain muscle?Slightly off-topic, but do tricep extension exercises work the long head of the triceps too? I also feel that front lever rows are harder than OAPs/OACs, anyone else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vayzenshtat Posted March 23, 2012 Author Share Posted March 23, 2012 I am not sure if I find OACs harder than front lever rows, but I feel a huge strain on my triceps during front lever rows, much more than during a front lever hold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Naterman Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Yes, that makes sense and I believe lat strength was my limiting factor for both the time for the front lever and the OAP. You are also correct that I have trained my elbow flexors, I used to do bicep curls during weight lifting before adopting Gymnastic Strength Training™. I was able to dumbbell curl 50lbs on each arm for a max and barbell curl 95lbs for 5+ reps at a bodyweight of 115lbs at the time I was able to do both of these. I see now that it was the weak link in my lats that I addressed through holding the front lever that enabled me to execute a full OAP. I think we can agree that there is some limited carryover (not sure how many percent, but I'm guessing up to 30%) between the two due to very strong lat strength needed for both and some posterior delt and triceps long head strength in both. It is also interesting that you are making strength gains in bodyweight pull-ups using a hollow body position and packed neck, is it strength gains in all muscle groups worked in a pull-up or a certain muscle?Slightly off-topic, but do tricep extension exercises work the long head of the triceps too? I also feel that front lever rows are harder than OAPs/OACs, anyone else?It seems like the strength gains are pretty all around, and probably has a lot to do with proper co-activation of different muscle groups.Most triceps extensions don't really work the long head much, but triceps kickbacks do if you are performing them correctly. There isn't much of anything in barbell or dumbbell work besides straight arm pullovers and kickbacks that does much of anything for the long head of the triceps. The kickbacks can be done with a straight arm as well for a slightly different stimulus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anhkun Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 wow all these different responses is really weird because for me i train on rings 99.5% of the time compared to a bar. i can hold a straddle FL on rings for like 8 seconds and a full layout for like 2seconds. but on a bar i can hold FL full layout for like 10seconds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommyC Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Bar is easier for me to hold a proper front lever.... rings seem to force me into a somewhat different straight arm angle which is harder for me.... I suspect I am squeezing together on the bar a bit... as if trying to bring my hands together on the bar.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbroken Posted December 15, 2014 Share Posted December 15, 2014 IMHO Front lever on bar is easier than rings, cause is more stable. I continue do on bar, not yet on rings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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