aaooll1 Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Hello all. I have a scenario that I would really appreciate your sincerest help with. I am really thinking about going ahead and beginning my three to four year round-the-world trip in the next 12-14 months. The question I want to pose to you all is this. I wholeheartedly agree that gymnasts, acrobats, and break-dancers are the strongest athletes on earth. I would like to know what are the 100% un-debatable most difficult and most beneficial skills to attain for every muscle group in the body in the fields of the three “sports†I mentioned above. (ankles, back, knees, legs, shoulders, rotator cuff, wrists, fingers, groin, buttocks, arms, neck, hands, abs, toes, elbows, etc.) I am willing to work at this 5-6 hours every single day until I begin my trip and document my progress daily with dedication. I don’t want to work towards exercises that are super hard but are for showing off. I just want to get these best skills down for every muscle group so that after I achieve success in them then when I embark on my round-the-world trip, all I will have to do is maintain that success. So, for instance, if the planche is on the list for whatever reason then all I will have to do is practice the planche for a couple of minutes every day during my time abroad. Same for the splits, handstand push-ups, etc. My friend is a former dancer and even though he doesn’t dance at events anymore, he can still all of his power moves that he learned during his time as a dance. He said that once you learn it and get it down, as long as you maintain it (spend a small bit of time on it) daily then you will never lose it. So, he advised me to get down as much as I can while I’m still young. I’m in my late 20s so I am starting super late but I think I’m still young enough to get the essentials down. (and possibly much more) So, please post away. I have more to add but I’m curious to see what I am looking at getting down for each muscle group. http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/anatomy.htm (I hope I'm not missing anything) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cole Dano Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 That's a nice idea you have but i don't think the timeline is very realistic.Skill wise one of Coach Sommer's basic principles is to build a foundation of strength first and skills second. Of course some of what you are asking about is strength work, but it also needs to be built from the ground up.Since you are interested in this forum, the best thing i can say is buy the book and most of your questions will be answered, and you will have a background to start a discussion from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaooll1 Posted February 23, 2012 Author Share Posted February 23, 2012 One of my classmates has BtGB. That's why I came here to this forum. I am inquiring elsewhere as well but she thought I could see what the author of her book has to say about this definitively and in-depth hopefully. About the book, though, mixed reviews from me. Considering that new book, Overcoming Gravity, though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cole Dano Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 You really expect a lot of him. That's a books worth of questions, the answers which can be reduced to what you would find in --- his book!So are you basically asking, 'I don't want to buy your book, because i like someone else's, but will you please summarize the book how i think it should be and do it in for free?' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaooll1 Posted February 23, 2012 Author Share Posted February 23, 2012 Hmm, not very helpful it seems. I've read the book already, just mentioned the Overcoming Gravity book b/c of the same classmate. I know nothing about gymnastics or anything which is why I'm inquiring about this. Please correct me if I'm wrong but when I briefly read the book, it did not list the best skill for every muscle group. If I'm wrong then excuse me and I'll check it out again.If this type of inquiry is ill-suited for this forum then again please excuse me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cole Dano Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Rather than breaking them up that way, they are broken up into movement type, which is more useful, unless you are interested in being a body builder.Most of the exercises, use a number of muscle groups. But the main concept is that once you understand that there a two types of exercise FSP and FBE are the terms Coach Sommer and each has a progression the answer to your question is easy, it's the hardest variation of each one's progression.On the practical level though, one has to work very methodically through the progressions to avoid injury or stalling out.Occasionally folks will ask 'what exercise builds my ___'From a strength point of view, this question is mostly pointless (not entirely but that's another discussion), and a better one would be, what kind of strength do you want to build?edit-A prize to anyone who can make sense of this sentence! Proof read Cole, proof read.Most of the exercises, use a number of muscle groups. But the main concept is that once you understand that there a two types of exercise FSP and FBE are the terms Coach Sommer and each has a progression the answer to your question is easy, it's the hardest variation of each one's progression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seiyafan Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 For body builders they should know which exercises correspond to which muscle group, for gymnastics it doesn't work like that. For example, planche push, coach sommers wrote: "You could consider the planche pushup a super bench press or a full bodypress. If there is a part of the body that is not tense and under strain during these, I have yet to discover it." So you can't quantify things like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cole Dano Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Even the WODs display a good deal of variety in how they are 'customized'!One thing the next book will have substantially more programing ideas as well as pre-hab, so it will be a pretty complete package. That doesn't mean you can get away without thinking. This really is an adventure in learning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaooll1 Posted February 23, 2012 Author Share Posted February 23, 2012 The main thing I gather people people don't like about it is that it doesn't list routines, exercises and reps for each person. And to that I say that people are just lazy as hell and want to be told what to do rather than taking the time to figure out what works best for them.Well, I don't know about anyone else but you sure hit the nail on the head for me. That was a huge complaint of mine (my friend also) about the book. You can call it laziness or whatever, that's fine but when I spend my money on a book like that, I want all of the "hard" work already done for me. I just want to follow the instructions, reap the benefits, and sing the praises of the author. I don't have anything against the book, it's just that area disappointed me. My friend still recommended this forum though, she is fond of the author and is hoping his future work will fill in the perceived gap we collectively feel was missing from BtGB. As for Overcoming Gravity, she really loves it and unfortunately will not lend it out to me (just yet). Not sure why, but she really seems to love it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seiyafan Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 All that said, front level will help you with pull ups, planche will help you with bench press, manna will help you with dips, and HSPU will help you with shoulder press. So front level for lats, planche for delts and pecs, is this what you are looking for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blairbob Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 I wouldn't get too concerned about each muscle and bone. Gymnastics is not BodyBuilding and or using a machine. Most gymnastics exercises involve lots of muscle groups though of course they will differ pending drill variant. When I first recieved BtGB, after reading it a few times over I lent it to one of my gymnastics friends. I think it was like 6 months later, I finally got my books and dvd's back (mainly because of a few times of forgetting to bring said materials when we would meet up). That being said, I would be very hard pushed to lend out books I need to reference frequently. Luckily, a few of my friends had their own copies and I would bug them whenever I couldn't remember something off-hand and they are online a lot. What OG apparently has for it, is that it's thorough. It includes HS work and mobility work besides upper and core strength work (though it does skip over BW leg strength/power development on purpose) and fleshed out programming. I have yet to read it, but it's supposed to really go way more depth in it than his "How to Create your Program" article. While you can go through the forum and youtube and grab some articles off DrillsandSkills (which some are in the CrossFitJournal and some in the CFJ aren't on D&S) and come away with a lot of HS drills and mobility work, it's still garbled and piecemeal. BtGB v2 seems to be adding the Liquid Steel™ work in response to OG and probably because of it's timetable (which is so far one book 4 years after announcement). Splitting up volumes in theory allows for a faster timetable besides more sales. I walked away from BtGB (and bare in mind, my review was the 1st after Ido's) kind of scratching my head over the programming. Luckily I had some experience under my belt already (I should actually look up my own logs to see what I did in late 2008/early 2009) and I remember 3x3-5 (see below paragraph). I do remember I started following the GB WOD in early 2009 for 1-3 months. Killroy70's program basically follows what Coach Sommer states beginning on the bottom of page 175 to the top of 176. He did his own variant on when to progress and reps/sets though. I'm sure if that paragraph was bolded and capitalized or in one of the "Shadow" paragraph boxes, a lot of people wouldn't have felt as lost. Page 175 does state 3x3-5 for most people with the note that younger athletes may only be able to do 1 set and some other athletes need 5 sets. People like 100 different ways to curl. In all honesty, unless you are in a gymnastics gym you just do single rail work unless MU to a playground bar or luck out and find a set of metal PB somewhere or something that will work as one. A barbell on a set of squat stands doesn't really work. There are your bread and butter exercises and everyone starts coming up with their own variants that are useful and meaningless. There is something very different to what Steven did as far as programming and learning. He did it on his own and himself primarily (though he did work with his guys on Gymkana and online advice) than just by teaching and observing his own students. To note, I did both. I use myself typically as a guinea pig before I try something with my gymnasts just to have a starting point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cole Dano Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 I never saw the OG threads before deletion, so i don't know why they got axed. This seems like a fair comparison. Obviously on this is Coach Sommer's site, he's not going to advertise a competitor.I've only read online previews of OG, I liked some of the theoretical information, but it seemed a bit wordy. I've always appreciated Coach Sommer's ability to fully condense an idea into as few words as possible. A skill i wish i had.(As an aside, who participated on who's forum and why?)The biggest issue for me is who do i trust? That's really simple, when Coach Sommer talks, I listen, others i take with a grain of salt.That's all i'm willing to say out-loud on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Naterman Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 The main thing I gather people people don't like about it is that it doesn't list routines, exercises and reps for each person. And to that I say that people are just lazy as hell and want to be told what to do rather than taking the time to figure out what works best for them.Well, I don't know about anyone else but you sure hit the nail on the head for me. That was a huge complaint of mine (my friend also) about the book. You can call it laziness or whatever, that's fine but when I spend my money on a book like that, I want all of the "hard" work already done for me. I just want to follow the instructions, reap the benefits, and sing the praises of the author. I don't have anything against the book, it's just that area disappointed me. My friend still recommended this forum though, she is fond of the author and is hoping his future work will fill in the perceived gap we collectively feel was missing from BtGB. As for Overcoming Gravity, she really loves it and unfortunately will not lend it out to me (just yet). Not sure why, but she really seems to love it...Unfortunately, this isn't how real life works. If you want to be good at something, you are going to have to teach yourself the important bits and that will involve learning to identify your weaknesses, learn the right way (which involves details that are often not widely discussed or even recognized) to do what you want to do, and for many people they must also understand WHY it is the right way. Understanding is not strictly required, but for many people it provides the motivation they need to alter their current practices. Because each person is different, these weaknesses will be different and it is too much to ask someone to personally address everything you want to know unless you are paying a sizeable consulting fee. We're talking at least $100 per hour for what you want to know. Personally, because of the very large amount of research, evaluation and effort that would be involved I wouldn't do that for less than $10,000 lump sum, and that might get you 3-4 weeks of my time, which I currently have none of to spare. Not that you are asking, but you clearly do not understand what you are asking FOR. There are an average of 206 bones in the body and over 600 muscles. Who the hell do you think is going to take the time to answer that for free, assuming that there WAS a definitive answer?Aside from that, you don't seem to understand that what you are asking depends entirely on your particular strengths and weaknesses and that there really isn't any such thing as "the best" skill for each muscle and bone. There is no such thing as separating these. Bones require compression and muscles require a combination of tonic and phasic work. Knowing that, and eventually working out your particular weaknesses and preferences you will find that there are a lot of "best" ways. In fact there are some "best ways" that REQUIRE external loading. It depends entirely on your definition of best, which will be different from the other 8 billion-ish definitions of "best" currently existing on the planet.As for the books:To be fair, the programming section is a bit weak in the first edition of BtGB, which is more of a progression guide, window into what gymnastics training has to offer, and exercise encyclopedia than a full-on training bible. It accomplishes those objectives quite nicely. Fortunately, something that pretty much meets that bill is on the way!The second edition is going to be what you are looking for, so hang on for a little bit. Review copies are on their way out. Do whatever you need to for the moment, but keep lurking here occasionally so that you catch the announcement when it is released for sale. It will cover the vast majority of what you want, all the way down to what mobility work you will need at various stages of training. It took a long time to put this together because training someone to truly be strong takes a lot of detail, and there is a real art to delivering that detail in a way that people understand and apply without getting lost.You will almost certainly still need this site for some assistance, particularly when it comes to learning correct body shape (which is actually 100% vital) because that is a bit tricky and something that I am learning from scratch. It is not easy when you don't have people to force you into the shape. I am learning how to do this on my own, which will benefit the many people like you who will be in the same situation.In the meantime, enjoy your training and perhaps find some time to learn more about human anatomy and movement! Anatomy Trains is a good book to start with because it will help you understand the interconnectedness of the body and why what you are asking for is just not realistic or even possible to answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Kristiansen Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Best and hardest skills is impossible to talk about. No skill is the hardest for any give bone or muscle because it all is supposed to work together. Also, to stay constructive, spend your time before your journey to learn the basics. Then during the travel you can train them. 1 year is a very short time when we talk about learning almost any skill, especially physically demanding ones.I would suggest that you research into prehab and conditioning training as well as how to program your training. You will need to get yo know your body and how you respond to certain physical stimuli which is also a lifelong process. For particular skills, there is plenty on this forum you can try to go for, but very fundamental things like a solid handstand, building up some pullup and dip strength(into muscle ups later on), back/front levers, should give you plenty of challenge for the time being. Working some easy planche variations might also benefit you. If you will be travelling, none of these require you to carry with you more than a couple of simple straps or rings you can hang in a tree or so. For legs you can work on single leg squats, jumping power, etc.But seriously, there is little chance that you will be able to pull off a crazy impressive planches in 1 year. Bodyweight feats such as that take years of full dedication to master. There are no quick fixes, learning to enjoy the process is what it is all about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Griffin Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 For example, planche push, coach sommers wrote: "You could consider the planche pushup a super bench press or a full bodypress. If there is a part of the body that is not tense and under strain during these, I have yet to discover it."FOREHEAD! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Nowell Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 I lol'd at the $10,000 comment, but the thought is correct. Grab an anatomy book, read the stickies here for getting started and start doing the pre-hab & WODs. I assume you have Sommer's Book? It will give you a better tool for asking more pointed questions on the forum. Several lifetimes worth of info if you search here or Google. Watch some professional gymnast, Ido Portal, break dancers etc on Youtube for motivation and something to aspire to. 12-14 months? 5-6 hr/daily? Work capacity does not happen over night nor does skill mastery. What are your base stats with the BTGB prerequisites? Your post hints that you are starting at a beginner level? You can make good progress in a year with smart training and good nutrition, but in this time span I wouldn't expect you to turn many heads dangling from trees traveling through the third world, nawmean? Regardless, start today! Who cares who you do or do not impress through your travels, if you are a solid person you will impress others in different ways and learn a lot in the process. Eventually your results will speak for itself.Where is your log/blog for preparing for this journey? Good luck bro! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Naterman Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 You can make good progress in a year with smart training and good nutrition, but in this time span I wouldn't expect you to turn many heads dangling from trees traveling through the third world, nawmean? BAAAAAHAHAHAHAHA!!! I about had to put on my brown pants for this one, nawmean? Original poster:Don't get discouraged. The first thing you have to do is build a strong body shape for the skills you are intending to learn. A PROPER plank, reverse plank, hollow hold and arch hold are the beginning. Along with that you will need to be able to hold a proper hollow position in a dead hang with a pronated, neutral, and supinated grip. Obviously this can't happen until you have a solid hollow. A solid hollow includes having the chin tucked and neck retracted simultaneously. This is very hard at first, even when the core part of the hollow hold is somewhat strong. The full proper shape is everything, because it will teach your body the right place to start movement from and how to use your muscles for maximum effectiveness. As your body shape improves, you can start working on push ups, rows, pull ups and dips while holding the right shape. There is no purpose in building strength with a bad shape. I have learned this the hard way.That basic shape stuff is going to take you 3-6 months. I would spend the majority of your time training gentle flexibility. You will have the time available to spend 30 minutes daily on 8-10 stretches. I would choose straddle pike, pike, bridge, the floor chest stretches, the "king" shoulder stretch and hip flexor stretches as the core of what you work on. Those are the priorities in order. I will recommend that you slowly work on German hangs as well. That will eat up something like 4 hours of your training time, seriously, if you are spending 30 minutes per stretch. You will need good nutrition to keep this up, and you will also need to be gentle and only stretch to moderate tightness and not to even mild pain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cole Dano Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Is he even reading any of this anymore. Let the guy respond, see if he really wants some help, or just to live the fantasy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Naterman Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 You got me, I just figured I would put that out there and let that be the end of my involvement That way he has something useful. Whether he uses it or not isn't really my concern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quick Start Test Smith Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Hey... I appreciate it even if the OP doesn't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cole Dano Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 True, and actually a lot of times when we post it's a given it's for a wider audience and answered accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quick Start Test Smith Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 I check this message board very often and read every single post (even journals lol, but I speed read). I appreciate every post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kman1 Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 I think it's a interesting idea that the OP has. Kind of like what are the essential exercises that he should do. I don't know what they are honestly but I am interested as well. I'd guess they would be akin to something like seiyafan posted. All of those long posts from other members but they couldn't just at least try to answer the question of this thread. Ridiculous. But since the thread went off-topic a bit and we are sharing our thoughts on Coach's book and OG, me next. I did not like the book much at all honestly. And I guess the reason is what everyone else seems to know already. Personally, I think Coach is trying to milk his street cred. That's why there was so much anticipation for the book in the first place. There's so much info intentionally left out on his book and then the response is that it will be included in the next book and also you can pretty much find out all this info on my site or attend on of my seminars. You're kidding, right? Nope, it's for real. But anyway, I still have $100 set aside for the second edition of his book. I really think if Coach stops trying to milk this and goes ahead and releases what he is capable of then it will be epic. As for the comparison with OG, I don't know really. But there are some things that jump right out at me about it. As far as gymnastics goes, I have never heard of the author. We all are very aware of Coach's many accomplishments and reputation in his field. On the other hand, though, the author of OG has some super knowledgeable people in support of his people of his book. Namely, the author of Convict Conditioning. I don't know of any very well-known trainers supporting Coach's book. Another thing is that Coach's main area of focus is young children raised doing gymnastics. I'm pretty sure most of his intended audience are NOT gymnasts/raised in gymnastics. His intended audience and who he trains daily for multiple hours are two totally different beasts. I'd love to see an adult with a 9-5 going from nothing to excellence personally working with Coach. (Coach probably could do it...) Last thing I'll say is that Coach should take some lessons from Enamait. I think he produced the absolute best bodyweight book ever and very few will debate this. But one thing about Enamait is he has a loyal group of followers and one doesn't really find his work being pirated on the net. Being a computer guy, that has always surprised me the respect that pirates give him. BtGB is easily available online everywhere and I think that says something. I'm not trying to compare the two but rather suggest that Coach adapt Enamait's way of thinking. I remember Ross saying that he doesn't have time to keep pumping out books because he is too busy training. Freaking awesome!Anyway, that's my 2 cents. But yeah, OP, I second what seiyafan posted, I'm sure there are a few others that can be added to what he posted to work the less thought about areas but just trying to get down one of these exercises he listed can easily take up your entire year. They are really that hard on the body. Keep up that enthusiasm, start a log here if you like, and keep up posted. You've motivated me to start my log again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kman1 Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Bold words from someone who doesn't know the "essentail" exercises.You don't know them either, so touche. But really, I don't think anyone knows what the "essentail" exercises are. (in parenthesis too) Seiyafan was the only one who actually answered the question to best of his knowledge instead of some long drawn out response. That's an issue with you fanboys of Coach. Can't take constructive criticism. I shelled out my hard earned cash for his book too and I am willing to give him one more chance with the second edition of his book. Just listen to what people are saying. You guys jump down the anyone's throat who has slightest doubt about Coach's book. Guess what, there goes another sale for coach to someone else. :roll: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Griffin Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Because I'm sure Coach and the other moderators have an image to upkeep, I'll say what they can't:Can we please stop arguing on the internet like idiots? You just look dumb, guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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