dreaming analyzed

[FritsMB Mansvelt Beck]

I am interested to find out more about the effectiveness of my dream machine (DM or ring pulley system) training. I could not find much about the subject on this Forum, nor elsewhere. So, I decided to do a little thinking myself (always a good idea).

I have not felt as good from my BtGB training as these last four weeks, since I started using my DM. With my BtGB training I tend to go mostly by how I feel the day after. “Good†therefore means feeling tight in the shoulders, arms, back, chest, and core the morning after, but being able to work out again after a good warmup, including stretching (I do take rest days).

Apparently after two years of mostly static holds, my strength and (ligament) conditioning has reached a point where I can do series of multi plane moves on my DM that include a very wide range of movement which I realistically speaking will never be able to do without a DM. Most likely, that is the reason that I am feeling so “goodâ€. In simple terms, I am getting a more complete workout than otherwise is possible for me. It may very well be that other forum members are at that point and might want to try this too. So, I decided to try and understand a little what is happening when I work out on my DM. Here is what I can come up with (please correct me if I am wrong):

1 Holding your body in a horizontal position, with only support at your hands (from the rings) takes a force of more than twice your body weight because the lever that your muscles (6 in shoulder girdle and back; 8 in chest; 8 in each arm) working together in a rather complex way can exert on your skeleton is more than twice as short as the lever consisting of your body weight at your center of gravity and the distance to your arm sockets.

2 When you use a DM, your body weight is supported by two points instead of one (the rings and the attachment points at your waist close to your center of gravity). The force that you have to exert at the rings to hold a position or move around is therefore reduced by 40% to 50% of your BW (40% if you include the friction in the system that you need to work against). In other words, with a DM the vertical pushing and pulling force requirements for ring moves are only 50% to 60% of your BW.

3 The net result is that, with a DM (if you can handle 50% to 60% of your BW), you can train your neuromuscular system and all your upper body, arm and core muscles doing sets of multi plane moves over a ROM that can not be replicated by any other form of exercise that I know of (e.g. series of: planche to pelican, to HS, down to inverted hang, up with reverse MU to a HS, and down to pelican again).

4 As far as I can figure, the interplay between all the muscle groups that is required when you do these moves is the same as doing these moves on rings; only the strength required is scaled down by 40% to 50%. So the training is similar to the real thing.

5 The setback is that “only†50% to 60% of your body weight is used as resistance. Once you are strong enough to handle more BW you would like to have a way to increase the load gradually.

6 I am not 100% sure, but I think that you can do this (i.e. increase the % body weight that you have to work against) by moving the attachment point of the ring straps from just above your hips up to your chest. I have to think a little more about this, but it seems logical, because when you move the strap attachment points from your waist to your shoulders, you have only a very small lever advantage left, consisting of the horizontal distance between your hands (on the rings) and your shoulders.

Any ideas or comments?

[Falcon]

I would like to hear slizzardman's opinion about this.

I can upgrade rings in my room to dream machine pretty easily - I would just fix one end of the straps on the rings and the other end on my waist and I think it would work.

[Cole Dano]

I think that in a way what Slizz is doing with the free motion machine is similar to the dream machine. Slizz's approach allows for more precise adjustment of load, but the feet are fixed to the floor so there is not the same potential to duplicate the movement.

Another option is a slide board, Total Gym type set up which allows changing the load via the slant of the board, but has limitations in how many planes of motion can be worked.

One idea for adjusting the load with a DM would be a weighted vest or ankle weights.

I do recall Coach Sommer saying that the center of gravity is shifted using a DM and so it's not a true scaling of the movements. I'm not sure if that's why there seems to be little interest here.

[FritsMB Mansvelt Beck]

It will be a couple of months before I can test how much stronger I did get by training with my DM. Yes, you can easily make working out with a DM harder by using a weight vest or ankle weights. I have already experimented a bit with that, but do not need it this stage of my training. I have also experimented a bit with moving the ring strap attachment up from my waist. Just 5 inches up makes, for example, holding a planche much harder, so that is probably the way I will do it, when I am ready for it. I think the main advantage of a DM is that you can train multi plane gymnastic moves on the rings with about half your body weight as a load. None of the methods that you mention allows you to do that (I have tried all of them). I estimate that about ten people here on the forum already use a DM. That is not so bad.

[Alvaro Antolinez]

Ideally a spotter is the solution (and the standard practice) as they only help when and where is needed, forcing you to work to your limit. Of course if you are not training with a coach or with a partner it is impossible to have a spotter .

I really want to try the DM although I am way behind your level, but just to practice the MU or HS and press to HS on rings will be great!.

[FritsMB Mansvelt Beck]

In my case my spotter would have to be very, very strong. I think you are overestimating my skill and strength level. For example, I can not hold a HS against the wall for more than 1.5 minute. You will be surprised how easy a HSPU and MU with a DM are. I am 100% sure that you can do both quite easily; working against only half your body weight makes a big difference. Also, there is absolutely no fear of falling with the HSPU, because you are held up by your waist. The side benefit of a DM, that I have not mentioned, is the fact that it extends the effective length of your rings by more than a meter when you do a HSPU.

[Joshua Naterman]

I agree that what I am doing is not as specific as what Frits is doing, but it is more scalable. Right now I am using what I am doing as a connective tissue conditioning element, and when I get stronger (25% BW or so in each hand which is 50 lbs, I am currently using 32.5) I will be including dream machine type work, which I expect to take place in about 18-24 months. It really is excellent for starting to build the feeling, but it isn't quite perfect. Eventually I will make a progressive cross trainer type apparatus but for now it isn't necessary nor would it be productive.

[Joshua Naterman]

Frits I just had a brilliant idea. You need to make an adjustable vest, adjustable meaning able to adjust to your body dimensions precisely with strong velcro, or buy a 7 point upper body harness (legs, waist and chest/shoulders) and run a strong piece of webbing with loops in it down where your spine goes or for multiplane stuff you could run two of those on your sides. The loops are like the different holes on cross trainers, they allow you to progressively adjust your CoG. It's basically a progressive dream machine! I suggest having the shoulder harness + waist strap at the very least so that you can continue to work multiplane stuff from planche to HS and whatnot without falling out when the torso anchor gets larger than your waist or hips as you move it up towards the chest.

[Joshua Naterman]

I can tell you 100% for sure that I am getting WAY stronger from the ring simulation stuff I am doing on the freemotion pulley machine, and I think DM work should be pretty much the same. Sure the movements aren't identical, but who cares? Right now you are building strength. When strength gets better you can start working on spotted stuff, but I think this is excellent for building the arms and shoulders up to what they need to be for the real positions!

[FritsMB Mansvelt Beck]

Using my standard climbing harness and shoulder harness as as attachments for webbing with closely spaced loops on each side of my ribcage so I can reduce the lever by my DM in small steps, sound like an excellent idea. I have plenty of time to experiment how to put that together before I really need it. I am planning the standard six to eight week steady state cycle with a routine I have put together to train (3 to 5) sets of (5 to 3) moves, before increasing the load in steps. Your assurance that I should gain sufficient strength to start closing the 50% body weight gap is very encouraging. So, thanks Sliz. When I notice some real increase in strength and skills, I will definitely let this forum know.

[Joshua Naterman]

Nice. What I am doing right now is 2 sets of 4 movement patterns.

The first one is inlocates followed immediately by butterflies. At this point I'm doing 15-20 reps of each per set. 32.5lb per arm.

Second is victorian pulls, lying supine. This is immediately followed by BL->ML->PL in one smooth motion, same reps and weight as above.

Third is no lean muscle up. This is deceptively difficult. MUCH harder than regular MU. I am at 50 lbs for this one, for 10-14 reps.

Last is reverse muscle ups, these you already know are hard 50 lbs here too, but only 3 reps. I have gone back to 25 lbs per arm because of some damage to my right brachialis after fighting off an arm bar for way too long. I'm doing 10 reps with the 25, which is pretty easy.

[Alvaro Antolinez]

to practice inverse MU do you set the machine arms at the floor? I can´t imagine any other way... Unless you hold a headstand .... disregard :shock:

[Joshua Beeston]

yes I am also very interested in how one would perform a reverse muscle up with a free motion machine

[FritsMB Mansvelt Beck]

In the BtGB book the reverse MU is described on page 105 (Curls chapter). Even with only half my body weight, I find it a pretty challenging move. Right now I am doing series of 4-5 starting from a shoulder stand in the rings (dream machine). From the shoulder stand I lower down into an inverse hang to about half way (so, bend arms) and then back up into shoulder stand, trying to increase the ROM with each repetition The sticking point is half way just before your forearms are at 90 degrees with your underarms, so I am gradually increasing strength and coordination to be able to get smoothly through that sticking point. To do a controlled reverse MU you have to balance your body with your shoulders while doing a curl upside down. I still need a lot of assist from my feet on the straps, because my coordination between shoulders and arms is lacking. It is a nice exercise and gives a great feeling like all upside down exercises (more blood to your brain?).

I will make video and post it.

[FritsMB Mansvelt Beck]

I just realized that the reverse MU question was about how to do it with Sliz's free motion machine and not with a DM. So, we will have to wait for Sliz to give an explanation and, maybe, a video. Actually, I am curious too how that works. I will wait with my video until I can do a really good full ROM reverse MU with my DM.

[Rings]

I´m training with DM too.

I feel more strong in my arms,shouders,also better balance,more control of the moves. Can work the muscles of the skills that maybe never could be able. And as said Slizzard,who cares! It´s really funny!

More easier to understand the dynamic of the skills,the rolls,etc..

I was training Bl press to PL with DM for one month,and voilá!.. I got 3" straddle panche on parallettes!

Also,I noticed that is not the same % with the harness close to chest,that close to groin. More lower=less help.

I think is the desire to want to do some skills in 2 years,when it should take 10 years at least! :oops: