Questions about Deadlifting

[Quick Start Test Smith]

I have some deadlifting questions. I will "arrange them in numerical order so as to ensure the ease with which you perceive said questions". lol

1) Single Leg Stiff Legged Deadlift vs. Double Legged Stiff Legged Deadlift

I want to eventually deadlift 300+ lbs. I currently deadlift around 200 lbs. Since literally everything I do in Karate and Tennis is based off of one leg, I've been strongly considering switching to a single leg stiff legged deadlift variation (or at least alternating between it and the standard variation every week); single leg because it feels more relevant to my actual athletic activities and stiff legged because I've read that it's also very applicable to athletic movements.

How would you suggest I go about doing this?

2) 10x3, 5x5, 6x3, 7x4... WHAT?

If I'm doing a SLSLDL (single leg stiff legged deadlift), what kind of rep scheme would be applicable? I've been reading on Strong Lifts that 5x5 is really a great mix of strength and size training and is very successful for increasing a beginner deadlifter's 1RM into the 300-400+ range. Maybe I should alternate between 10x3 and 5x5 every week?

3) How does a SLSLDL rep/set scheme work? If you've got a 5x5 scheme with 3 minutes between sets, do you do 5 reps with one leg and then 5 reps with the other followed by the 3 minute rest?

Thanks very much.

[Joshua Naterman]

Single leg stuff is best performed with 5-10 reps per set, for one simple reason: You are limited by stabilizers instead of prime movers and stabilizers are ALL slow twitch dominant. They will respond better to a slightly higher volume. A second reason would be that you never want to work maximally in an unstable position, so unless your hips knees and ankles are supremely stable I wouldn't ever do less than 5 rep max weight. You can certainly do 10x3 with a 5-6RM weight, no problem. Just don't max. That's stupid and asking for trouble.

I would recommend that you perform 2-3 sets of normal deadlifts so that you maintain strength, and do the bulk of your work with the SLDL. Abandoning bilateral work completely is silly.

[Quick Start Test Smith]

Thanks, Slizzardman. I'm thinking about 3x3 DL followed by 3-5x5 SLDL once a week.

What do you think about split squats? I've heard really good things about them but never seen them mentioned here before.

[Joshua Naterman]

They are good, they are more of a beginning progression towards SLS.

[Quick Start Test Smith]

I see. I like the way it's hard to stabilize the back foot on the bench. I guess if you weighted yourself down enough they could be a really good exercise because of that unstable position.

[Joshua Naterman]

Oh yea, absolutely. Mike Boyle likes using those a lot and gets great results.

[Tarun Suri]

I hope you don't mind if I post a question of my own since it's specifically deadlift related:

Since externally rotating the arm placed your shoulder/scapula in a much more integrated position, wouldn't that position allow you to generate more stability and transfer of force during the ascent? Why do people usually deadlift with an overhand grip rather than underhand grip (external rotation)?

I'm just trying to put all the pieces of the puzzle together.

[Joshua Naterman]

The shoulder is more stable and better protected in the somewhat internally rotated position and the grip is stronger because of the lines of force running down the forearm muscles. However, you should do what feels good to you. I've never really heard of anyone hurting themselves with an undergrip, though it would probably be easier to scrape the shins with the bar.

[Quick Start Test Smith]

RandomHavoc, I think the mixed grip is the most common style and I like it. Have you tried it?

[Nicholas Sortino]

I can say that an underhand grip is a lot more difficult in my experience. I do them on my lighter warm up sets, but could not do it on my actual work sets.

[Tarun Suri]

I actually thought of it while looking at your blog Nick. that's where the thought came from.

Patrick, I reserve the mix grip when my sets get very heavy (over 85% max, and usually after 4 warmup sets), at which point, I'm trying to avoid failure due to grip issues. Question still remains as to why it feel more difficult when to my understanding, it should make things easier.

[Blairbob]

You shouldn't throw out the single leg stuff, but keep it for assistance work, especially as you are a beginner.

I've read in a recent Tnation article that 5x5 can be fine to 300lbs but isn't that great all in all, especially every workout.

I DL my warmup sets in overgrip until I need to switch to a mixed grip. Generally I find I don't need chalk this way since it's at the UCgym (but sometimes I smuggle some in).

I've heard it's not a good idea to DL in undergrip.

Stiff Leg and Romanian DL are known to cause a crapload of DOMS. Be prepared. This is because they start from the hang and have a long eccentric whereas as a traditional DL is mostly concentric. Another reason most forms of squats are damned hard, they have both an eccentric and concentric phase.

You could probably choose to do any form of lunge squats, such as the Bulgarian Split Squat or Step Up. Both are a bit safer to do. They are dumb easy compared to back and front squats, imo. Easier to learn though you still have to focus on depth which is why Bulgarian Step Ups are interesting.

Generally for Single Leg work I alternate, but you can do one leg, short rest then do the other. I dunno as I suck at them so I don't do them.

For programming, you could probably do 3/5x5 and try a linear progression till you stall out and have to come up with some more interesting programming. I'd reccomend Wendler 5-3-1 after that.

This is where StartingStrength is golden, but SS should be done standalone. I find Wendler 5-3-1 can be blended in addition to other stuff unlike SS.

[Tarun Suri]

I just remembered that Mark Rippetoe mentioned that doing Pendlay Rows (bent over barbell rows) with an under grip is a sure-fire way to wreck your -something-. I'll need to look that up again, seeing as it may have a connection with deadlifts.

[acegerter]

I highly recommend the 5-3-1 scheme. Started it 5 weeks ago and have been loving it.

My current 5-3-1 workout's:

1)DL - GHR - leg lifts

2)Bench - weighted pullups - weighted dips

--(weighted stuff goes 0-10-20-30-40lbs)

3)Squat - advanced shrimps - box step ups

-Overhead push day omitted because I do hand balancing, presses and handstand pushups almost everyday.

I've been trying to do 5-3-1, gymnastic bodies and my acrobatic work consistently but it's kind of tricky. 5-3-1 days leave me pretty beat... and so do GB days too! Probably going to scale down the weights on 531...

Adding SLDL might be a good thing to add...

This site is awesome for ideas!

[Quick Start Test Smith]

Blairbob, I plan on doing a mix of 10x3 and 5x5 until I get up to 300. Then I'll probably try 5/3/1 and see how I do.

[Nicholas Sortino]

I've never heard of an undergrip being dangerous, but I suppose it is possible. It is a more disadvantaged position in my experience. But I also only do them for light weights. My first 2-3 warm up set (pretty much anything under 200lbs), so I don't think I am risking too much.

I decided to do them because I figure if I am working out for "functionality" then it would make sense. If I am going to pick up some heavy furniture of equipment (common occurrence in my job), then it will probably be with an underhand grip, so I should work it at least a little.

Random, I think the reason it is more difficult is because have less leverage to pull the bar towards yourself with that grip. In a proper deadlift you use your lats to pull the bar towards your body as you are pulling the bar upwards. When your palms are towards you, that is easy. When the are away, you have a lot less hand to exert that pull force on the bar.

[Philip Chubb]

Exercises themselves aren't dangerous. More like dangerous ways to do exercises or dangerous people who exercise. I know a lot of people who flip tires with that same underhanded grip.

[Nicholas Sortino]

Exercises themselves aren't dangerous. More like dangerous ways to do exercises or dangerous people who exercise. I know a lot of people who flip tires with that same underhanded grip.

Is it even possible to use anything but an underhand grip for that? A tire flip isnt quite the same a deadlift though. You can push forward while lifting the tire. Try that with a barbell and see what happens...

[Tarun Suri]

I've never heard of an undergrip being dangerous, but I suppose it is possible. It is a more disadvantaged position in my experience. But I also only do them for light weights. My first 2-3 warm up set (pretty much anything under 200lbs), so I don't think I am risking too much.

I decided to do them because I figure if I am working out for "functionality" then it would make sense. If I am going to pick up some heavy furniture of equipment (common occurrence in my job), then it will probably be with an underhand grip, so I should work it at least a little.

Random, I think the reason it is more difficult is because have less leverage to pull the bar towards yourself with that grip. In a proper deadlift you use your lats to pull the bar towards your body as you are pulling the bar upwards. When your palms are towards you, that is easy. When the are away, you have a lot less hand to exert that pull force on the bar.

There we go The dots are connected now. I knew I was missing something fundamental that was right underneath my nose. LATS are internal rotators, so clearly if you externally rotate, you've got less support. So shoulder extension --> internal rotation, shoulder flexion --> external rotation. Gotta love when it all clicks together!

Still got to find time to find that quote by Mark Rippetoe, just to make sure I'm not missing something.

EDIT: Woah, randomly checked my number of posts, same as yours Nick.

EDIT***: NVM, dislexia ...

[Blairbob]

I like splitting my days of 5-3-1 and GB. However, for awhile I would end up lifting on W/Sa and that would crush me over time since that means I'm very active 6d in a row. Even if lifting on 531 isn't a super ballbuster.

I was trying to lift in the morning and that was just crappy. Tu/F afternoon, gym at night seems to be best but morning/night sounds better if I could make it work.

[Philip Chubb]

Exercises themselves aren't dangerous. More like dangerous ways to do exercises or dangerous people who exercise. I know a lot of people who flip tires with that same underhanded grip.

Is it even possible to use anything but an underhand grip for that? A tire flip isnt quite the same a deadlift though. You can push forward while lifting the tire. Try that with a barbell and see what happens...

Yeah there are all kinds of tires. Like a deadlift tire. I don't know what else to call it but we have one and it has straps sort of like a barbell and your hands can face either direction. Hard to explain but the point is still there. It is dangerous when you do it dangerously.

[Joshua Naterman]

Exercises themselves aren't dangerous. More like dangerous ways to do exercises or dangerous people who exercise. I know a lot of people who flip tires with that same underhanded grip.

Is it even possible to use anything but an underhand grip for that? A tire flip isnt quite the same a deadlift though. You can push forward while lifting the tire. Try that with a barbell and see what happens...

Yeah there are all kinds of tires. Like a deadlift tire. I don't know what else to call it but we have one and it has straps sort of like a barbell and your hands can face either direction. Hard to explain but the point is still there. It is dangerous when you do it dangerously.

Crazy, I never heard of such a thing!

[Philip Chubb]

I am not sure where you would find it but we have one. It's name is Betty!