Is Back Lever a Necessity?

[CalisthenicGod]

Greetings Gentlemen,

I apologize for posting so many questions, I am still a newb :?

My question is:

If the Back Lever is fundamental and it must be established to even attempt a Planche or Front Lever? The biggest problem is the only access I have is a pull-up bar, and doing inverted hangs/german hangs/back lever may prove to be fatal/suicidal in the event that the bar comes crashing down (for any reason, during the transition from inverted hang to a back lever/german hang). I am currently doing the Planche and Front Lever progressions (I am a rebel for not doing Back Levers and L-Sits, I know, but it is more lack of proper equipment and safety than laziness).

I have pillows placed strategically all over the ground when I do my Front Lever progressions on my pull-up bar (Yes, that is how concerned I am about safety , I don't wand to end my training career with a coma caused by the bar collapsing when I am in a Front Lever position). Thus Back Levers are out of the question for me, until I can find a stable and safe bar to hang from. For now, I am only doing Front Lever and Planche progressions.

So I am wondering if this is okay, and will I still be able to eventually achieve a full Front Lever and full Planche given time and dedication. I don't mind if my progress is a little bit slower than people that do Back Levers and L-Sits along with the FL and Planche, as long as I will be able to achieve them.

I promise though, when I build my own set of paralletes and find a safe bar to hang from, I will go back to the basics and master the Back Lever and L-Sits.

Thanks for reading and I appreciate your support

[Michael Traynor]

I do BL all the time on my home chin up bar but I won't question your care for safety and leaving out BL is your choice, your FL and PL will still improve if you work them regardless.

There really is absolutely no reason not to work Lsits though you can do them absolutely anywhere with all kinds of things:

The floor! Not strong enough to do any variation of Lsit on the floor? Try:

Chairs, tables, stools, kitchen counter, press up handles, stacks of books, bricks, railings, a low wall...the list goes on and on.

[CalisthenicGod]

Thank you for the quick reply Breaks,

Perhaps you have a lot more courage than me, I can't seem to muster the bravery to consistently invert myself into a german hang knowing the bar could potentially collapse on me, possibly landing directly on my neck :shock: . I had a friend that was practicing One arm chin-ups and for some reason, as he grabbed onto the bar, the whole thing collapsed on him and fell on his head, causing him to bleed profusely and gave him a mild concussion. Although I wasn't there, so perhaps he did not set the bar up properly or he initiated the pull-up with a jump (the pull-up bar is the hook-on type, one that uses leverage). Nevertheless, I am far more careful due to the unfortunate event happening to him.

You are absolutely correct, I have two chairs that I can do L-Sit from, however the soft padding causes my hands to sink in and it puts more pressure on my wrists. I found a new place to do them using my push-up bars, so it's all good and I will re-commence the L-Sit training .

Do you think Front Lever, Planche and L-Sit would establish a good foundation? I am leaving Back Levers out of the picture, maybe until I muster the courage and will to do them, I just want to know if Back Levers are worth the risk (of falling flat on my face ). I probably will not do Straddle L's or Manna, as I believe L-Sit should be enough (can someone correct me on that?), although if I am convinced otherwise, I might consider working the Straddle L's and Manna, but that might add too much volume to my overall routine.

Again, thanks for the feedback

[Cyaneus]

CG, I didn't want to use my door pull bar for BLs so I just waited until I got rings. Get rings bro! They are awesome.

[CalisthenicGod]

CG, I didn't want to use my door pull bar for BLs so I just waited until I got rings. Get rings bro! They are awesome.

Will definitely do, once I get into university I am going to order my Rings.

[CalisthenicGod]

I just did 6x10 seconds of German Hang in the local park, however I do not always have access to that park, which means I will have to use the pull-up bar at one point. Can anyone suggest any safety measures to be taken before attempting German Hangs on a pull-up bar? For example I take a bunch of pillows/mats on the ground to cushion my fall, but this won't prevent the falling bar from smashing my face and possibly ruining my teeth (which I spent 2 years with braces on), I have the "hook on" pull-up bar that uses leverage to stay on the door frame.

Also I noticed when I do the german hangs in the park, my grip is a little more than shoulder width apart, should it be exactly shoulder width apart, or a little bit closer/wider? I tried german hangs before on my pull-up bar using should width grip and it was quite painful on my shoulders and killed my elbows. Any insight on this is appreciated.

I'm hoping Slizzardman would chime in to give some advice, as he has a wide knowledge base on human physiology and first hand experience, and I doubt the Coach would meddle with a question as dumb as this :| .

[Cole Dano]

A little wider than shoulder width is fine.

Hey i wouldn't use one of those iron gym type bars to do anything other than simple pull ups either. They aren't made for that. We had a forum member have a nasty spill from one of those a while back. That said, where there's a will there's a way. Try to be creative and see if you can rig something up in the mean time. Heck i learned to do pull ups with a closet rod that i put on top of two open doors. Then i put some strong eye bolt in the ceiling and hung the same rod from some straps. Finally i found someone to weld me up a proper pull up bar that i now have installed in my workout room.

The point being with some creativity there are probably more solutions around then you are aware of. Find something to get you going, then slowly improve from there.

[Piotr Ochocki]

You are absolutely correct, I have two chairs that I can do L-Sit from, however the soft padding causes my hands to sink in and it puts more pressure on my wrists.

So, what's the problem, put some planks, etc on the chair seat (I wouldn''t say use hard books for it, shame to destroy a book), there are other ways, just need a bit of creativity .

[CalisthenicGod]

A little wider than shoulder width is fine.

Hey i wouldn't use one of those iron gym type bars to do anything other than simple pull ups either. They aren't made for that. We had a forum member have a nasty spill from one of those a while back. That said, where there's a will there's a way. Try to be creative and see if you can rig something up in the mean time. Heck i learned to do pull ups with a closet rod that i put on top of two open doors. Then i put some strong eye bolt in the ceiling and hung the same rod from some straps. Finally i found someone to weld me up a proper pull up bar that i now have installed in my workout room.

The point being with some creativity there are probably more solutions around then you are aware of. Find something to get you going, then slowly improve from there.

Thanks Mr.Brady,

I guess I will lay off the Back Lever work for now, and focus on L-Sit, Planche and Front Lever. I can afford to do the Front Lever on the pull-up bar (the Iron Gym one as you mentioned) because the position is less compromising, and if I do fall I will tuck in my chin and the pillow padding I set up for myself will hopefully keep me from sustaining serious injury. I am just hoping that I can do without the Back Lever, and that Planche/Front Lever can cover up the loss of not doing Back Levers.

By the way, do you mind sharing the story on what happened to the other forum member? How serious was the accident?

[CalisthenicGod]

You are absolutely correct, I have two chairs that I can do L-Sit from, however the soft padding causes my hands to sink in and it puts more pressure on my wrists.

So, what's the problem, put some planks, etc on the chair seat (I wouldn''t say use hard books for it, shame to destroy a book), there are other ways, just need a bit of creativity .

Indeed I found a way to practice L-Sits, in fact it works great and it is stunningly similar to parallel bars, but not quite .

[AlexX]

Back lever is a fairly easy skill if you are already somewhat strong from weights or other bodyweight movements. However, if you are interested in obtaining the higher level ring strength elements (Iron Cross and so on) the palms back version is a huge help, to me it was irreplaceable since I couldn't really work ring handstands. A planche on floor and a front lever will leave a huge hole in our training for elbow conditioning as neither really stresses that area to a high degree. I guess you could try using resistance bands and weights and do the straight arm assistance exercises instead.

As for the pullup bar solution, buy a pullup bar that screws into the door frame (they are 10 bucks) and hang it really low to the ground if you are paranoid about falling put some pillows under you when you hang on it and you should be fine in case of any fall.

[CalisthenicGod]

Back lever is a fairly easy skill if you are already somewhat strong from weights or other bodyweight movements. However, if you are interested in obtaining the higher level ring strength elements (Iron Cross and so on) the palms back version is a huge help, to me it was irreplaceable since I couldn't really work ring handstands. A planche on floor and a front lever will leave a huge hole in our training for elbow conditioning as neither really stresses that area to a high degree. I guess you could try using resistance bands and weights and do the straight arm assistance exercises instead.

As for the pullup bar solution, buy a pullup bar that screws into the door frame (they are 10 bucks) and hang it really low to the ground if you are paranoid about falling put some pillows under you when you hang on it and you should be fine in case of any fall.

Thank you for your input, AlexX.

I don't think I am gifted enough to ever be able to do Iron Crosses, Maltese or Victorians, especially with my body type (Tall and lanky), however my personal, realistic goals are to be able to do the Front Lever and Planche (Both full lay). Will working on FL and Planche carry over to the Back Lever? I may commence consistent Back Lever training when I find a suitable environment to train that movement, otherwise the risk vs reward is too great in my opinion. (Risk being face-planting into the ground)

The screw-in pull-up bar is a solution, however my parents would be highly against the idea of me putting screws in their doors and even when I get into university (more than a month from now), I doubt they will let me punch in screws in my dorm room. Adjusting the bar low will not allow me to work on German Hangs though, and after reading a lot of information on the forums, they are supposedly a pre-requisite before even trying the Back Lever. I appreciate your idea though, thanks anyways.

[Blairbob]

In all honesty, Back Lever isn't necessary for most people to start with. However, it is necessary if you wish to get into advanced ring strength (crosses and up).

[CalisthenicGod]

In all honesty, Back Lever isn't necessary for most people to start with. However, it is necessary if you wish to get into advanced ring strength (crosses and up).

Thanks Blairbob, I guess I will lay off Back Levers for now due to safety issues. When I find a suitable place to train Back Levers consistently, I will definitely start again.

In your opinion, would you think Front Levers, Planche and L-Sit will build a good foundation for gymnastics, or physically in general? I won't dabble in Mannas, Straddle L's or Back Levers for now until I achieve a solid Advanced L-Sit or a safe bar to hang from. Would becoming proficient at FL, Planche, L-Sit along with pull-ups, dips, handstand push-ups, hanging leg raises, bridging and push-ups have any positive carryover to Back Lever?

Thanks again!

[Michael Traynor]

Back Lever is great for conditioning the biceps tendon as already mentioned which you will miss out on, until you can get rings and work supports and bl, I would make sure you include planche leans with fingers facing backwards and strict straight arms and form this will start to strengthen that straight arm work a little at least.

As far as the safety of door frame pull up bars, a picture paints a thousand word, so I made a wee video for you:

3g9fjUFfxXs

[CalisthenicGod]

Back Lever is great for conditioning the biceps tendon as already mentioned which you will miss out on, until you can get rings and work supports and bl, I would make sure you include planche leans with fingers facing backwards and strict straight arms and form this will start to strengthen that straight arm work a little at least.

As far as the safety of door frame pull up bars, a picture paints a thousand word, so I made a wee video for you:

3g9fjUFfxXs

Amazing reply, thanks for spending the time on making the video, it means a lot .

Seeing how it works out completely fine for you, I will start to work on Back Lever again but with extra caution and of course, pillows on the ground for safety. You made an exceptional point about avoiding "jumping" up to the bar, as that was probably what my friend did when attempting an OAC, causing the bar to crash onto him and give him bumps and bruises all over his head . I guess it will be very important to make sure that the bar is hooked on right each and every time, and make sure all the screws are tight.

Again thanks a lot for the reply, I never expected someone to actually spend time to make a video reply, really says a lot about the kind of people that participate on this forum, sharing the same passion on training.

[Michael Traynor]

Amazing reply, thanks for spending the time on making the video, it means a lot .

Seeing how it works out completely fine for you, I will start to work on Back Lever again but with extra caution and of course, pillows on the ground for safety. You made an exceptional point about avoiding "jumping" up to the bar, as that was probably what my friend did when attempting an OAC, causing the bar to crash onto him and give him bumps and bruises all over his head . I guess it will be very important to make sure that the bar is hooked on right each and every time, and make sure all the screws are tight.

Again thanks a lot for the reply, I never expected someone to actually spend time to make a video reply, really says a lot about the kind of people that participate on this forum, sharing the same passion on training.

You are very welcome only takes a minute and it's often easier to do "show and tell"

Just make sure that you stay careful, wasn't trying to use bravado to convince you to train on it, just to show you the only pitfall that I can see, so long as you do everything with control and no momentum (but that's what you are aiming for anyway)happy and safe training!

[CalisthenicGod]

You are very welcome only takes a minute and it's often easier to do "show and tell"

Just make sure that you stay careful, wasn't trying to use bravado to convince you to train on it, just to show you the only pitfall that I can see, so long as you do everything with control and no momentum (but that's what you are aiming for anyway)happy and safe training!

Haha, I will definitely be careful when doing BL on my leverage pullup bar. I checked out your youtube channel, and your video on scapular retraction for Front Lever was very helpful.

Right now I am focusing on 4 basic gymnastic FSP's: Planche, Front Lever, Back Lever and L-Sit. I will not be doing the Manna or Straddle-L since it would add far too much volume to my workout regimen and I like focusing on less rather than more.

Breaks, do you think I can get away with not doing the Straddle-L's and Manna? I mean having a solid Advanced L-Sit should cover Straddle-L's somewhat, and the Manna is somewhat exotic and I don't see myself ever getting into a position like that (I'm a tall and lanky person, who happens to have heavy legs). I read that the Manna can be very useful for fixing up shoulder imbalances and condition the triceps, but I'm wondering if just focusing on the 4 FSP's mentioned above is good enough for a solid foundation.

Again, thanks :wink:

[Michael Traynor]

Breaks, do you think I can get away with not doing the Straddle-L's and Manna? I mean having a solid Advanced L-Sit should cover Straddle-L's somewhat, and the Manna is somewhat exotic and I don't see myself ever getting into a position like that (I'm a tall and lanky person, who happens to have heavy legs). I read that the Manna can be very useful for fixing up shoulder imbalances and condition the triceps, but I'm wondering if just focusing on the 4 FSP's mentioned above is good enough for a solid foundation.

Again, thanks :wink:

Yes, you can get away with not training straddle L and Manna for now. A solid 60s L-st is a prerequisite for work on those positions anyway although I would encourage you to play around with them. Even a low straddle L will start working your active hip flexibility fairly intensly. I don't include Straddle L or Middle Split Hold in my FSP yet but I play around with them a lot (i'm a particular fan of MSH and may start including it soon).

I would however encourage you not to limit yourself or your progress, it's true even many top gymnasts don't achieve Manna but you definately won't achieve it if you are defeated before you start I'm 6 foot and am surprised at how high I can get my MSH already.

[Blairbob]

Would becoming proficient at FL, Planche, L-Sit along with pull-ups, dips, handstand push-ups, hanging leg raises, bridging and push-ups have any positive carryover to Back Lever?

To some degree as it requires some definite upper body pulling and push strength and core strength. Still none of them really hit the elbows like BL except possibly ring dips.

Bridging not really you start using weighted head bridges which I wouldn't recommend since I've never tried them. Getting a good head bridge all the way to your forehead sounds like a prerequisite and maybe after then, maybe if you cared.

Planche leans, Dumbbell work laying on your back going from a simulated BL to PL might work very well as a sub.

[CalisthenicGod]

Yes, you can get away with not training straddle L and Manna for now. A solid 60s L-st is a prerequisite for work on those positions anyway although I would encourage you to play around with them. Even a low straddle L will start working your active hip flexibility fairly intensly. I don't include Straddle L or Middle Split Hold in my FSP yet but I play around with them a lot (i'm a particular fan of MSH and may start including it soon).

I would however encourage you not to limit yourself or your progress, it's true even many top gymnasts don't achieve Manna but you definately won't achieve it if you are defeated before you start I'm 6 foot and am surprised at how high I can get my MSH already.

You're right about the self-defeating thoughts. Although generally Straddle-L and Manna isn't very high in priority on my list of gymnastic goals. I mainly want to achieve Full Planche, FL, BL and L-Sit, along with most of the FBE's.

I did about 4-5 sets of 10 sec German hangs until I swung back too fast on one of them and had to let go, landing flat on my ass on a 2-layered pillow cushion (thank god it was there, I don't want to imagine what would happen to my tailbone if it wasn't). I looked around the forum and the suggested standard is 3x30 seconds of German Hangs. Thus would it be okay to train 3 sets of 10 seconds, and then slowly build up to 3 sets of 30 seconds? Does it have to follow the same rules of SSC and 50% intensity? That would mean I would need a 60 sec solid German Hang, which might take a while :| .

[Blairbob]

I would not do maximal attempts.

I might consider doing assisted holds for 30s. Lower into german hang till your feet touch a chair, stool, or box. It'll take off a % of the weight.

I used assisted german hangs and supports when I started retraining in January to get my strength back.

[Michael Traynor]

I would not do maximal attempts.

I might consider doing assisted holds for 30s. Lower into german hang till your feet touch a chair, stool, or box. It'll take off a % of the weight.

I used assisted german hangs and supports when I started retraining in January to get my strength back.

This^^

What I didn't mention in my video is that all of the work that I do on the leverage bar is controlled and slow and not to exhaustion. I hold FSP for time but I can easily hold them for the required time without trouble.