Programming Squats for Young Girls

[Reveridian]

Hey guys I've been lurking around for a while and have found SO much amazing information so firstly I just want to thank absolutely everyone for all the information that you so willingly share. I have really learnt a lot and have improved as a gymnastics coach as a result. Also thank you to Coach Sommer your book is fantastic and a great tool that my entire gym uses.

Nooooow the real question. I coach a number of different classes and one of them is a mid level girls class. I've started spending a fair bit of time on strength with them (they are aged about 9-12) and specifically have started weighted squats. I've been using bags of sand that we have, they are about 3-5kg each (so not too heavy), and my girls are currently using 3-4 bags.

The technique I use is feet about shoulder width, maybe a little wider, feet turned out about 45 degrees and squatting down below horizontal keeping back straight. The technique the senior coaches use is putting a ball between knees to stop them tracking badly, keeping feet fairly close together and pointed forwards and back, of course, straight.

I've been approached by some senior coaches and told that this may not be good for them, both in terms of technique and the amount of weight. And as far as I'm aware the whole stunting growth is a myth right? We had a bit of a discussion about it and decided we needed to further research on this. So I was wondering if you guys could give me some idea of whether I should be doing this or not? Is there anything I could/should change to improve this or avoid problems with injury. So far I have had no injuries and they all seem to be doing it with good technique. We are doing 3 sets of 5, the idea being that it's fairly difficult.

Sorry for this excessively long post haha but help would very much be appreciated. Thanks in advance guys 8)

[Blairbob]

Right now with my girls we have been doing squats. When we get back closer to competition season, I will probably limit it to 1d/week from 2d/week and focus on more plyo. 3d/week doesn't work as Tu/W is back to back and I like to use what time I have on the Wednesday to do other conditioning like wall HS. Currently, I aim to do it on Tu/F. However, a lot of the girls are still using light weights since their depth is not parallel be it lunge or squat. And some are just candyass.

We do have 2 barbells, but the weights on them are sort of sketchy and they tend to be downstairs. I've been having them use DB, sometimes they just use one in the hand opposite the leg that is forward in a split or bulgarian squat or lunge. I have also started teaching a few of them how to DB squat and one of my girls did 50lbs last week. 2x25lb DB. Her form was dead-on but she is pretty coordinated and I am pretty demanding.

You may want to look at this video:

http://www.mobilitywod.com/2011/05/episode-240365-10-min-squat-test-8-athletic-acl-injury-prevention.html

For years, over a decade I squatted with my toes turned out. After such time, my legs have poor internal rotation though I have never suffered from a major knee injury. It probably contributes to my lack of hip mobility, namely in straddle-L (so I have been working on improving internal rotation a lot and squatting toes forward).

One program in the U.S., Airborne Gymnastics out of Santa Clara includes weight training. This is one of the top clubs in the US though they do not have an elite track (as it's not their priority/vision). In fact, I think the head coach there may be coming to my gym of sorts which would be really cool since I grilled him last year about his use of weightlifting and crossfit for his girls.

I came across another high level club out there awhile back but I forget where they are. I know Steve Rybacki uses weights as well.

I generally use 3 sets of 5 as well with kids, but sometimes include a few ramp up sets. I have generally never tried to get them to approach 3rm and I'm ok if they merely do 3 reps with a weight rather than try to push themselves. That's not worth it to me and still they are getting SOME strength training whereas before they were not getting ANY.

One coach had his girls doing BS but as we don't have racks it means they have to clean and press it and rack it on their back (sometimes with me assisting). I don't really like this so I have stuck to the split squats (bulgarian and lunges) and doing DB squats (which are similar to a hex bar DL/SQ) or DL. As well, I'm a bit wary of loading up their shoulders like baseball players.

[Reveridian]

Sweet thanks for your help

So you are saying that weighted squats are not bad not matter how much weight you put on? (within reason)

And what do you mean you are cautious of loading up their shoulders like baseball players? When we use sandbags I'm having them put either 1 on each shoulder and 1 around the neck or 2 on each shoulder. Should I not be doing this?

Also should I be going below parallel? Is it dangerous?

Annnnd last question; So you are saying toes turned out is potentially bad? I thought that your toes, knee and hip should all be in a straight line and so if your feet are shoulder width or a bit wider the feet need to naturally turn otherwise you can damage the hip can't you?... I understand that you need to train the specific movements that are going to be used in gymnastics so yeah I will start teaching them with toes forwards but I still want to understand why people DO squats with turned out feet then? Is it just to work different muscles?

That video was fairly helpful and I always make sure that none of their knees track badly

Thanks heaps for your help

[Joshua Naterman]

If your feet are around shoulder width you shouldn't have any problems squatting with feet forward unless you have serious hip mobility issues. Regardless of where the pain is being felt, the root will be with the hip. You will of course have to balance muscular strength as well as passive tension (accomplished with ART-like methods) across the knee and hip joints. You should find that this also helps straighten out the majority of repetitive ankle issues, though ankle joint prep should always be a part of every program.

You will find your girls developing strength imbalances between vastus medialis and vastus lateralis, the two teardrop muscles on the lower quads. Google for good pics!

Squats are great, though front squats tend to be better for athletes. I'd do single leg variations and progressions as well, both weighted and unweighted. The bottom line is that the more types of resistance you expose their bodies to the stronger and more capable they will become. Sorry, that's all my time for today. Perhaps I'll write more this weekend!

[Reveridian]

Yeah ok that makes sense. I do run a fairly comprehensive ankle joint prehab program as well as stretching etc. And yeah I do single leg squats with my girls as well, though not yet weighted as they aren't quite strong enough.

Hmm will the imbalance still occur if I start doing front squats, instead of the feet pointing out, combined with single leg squats? Or is that imbalance simply from having the feet pointing out and therefore engaging the wrong muscles?

Ok thank you guys for alleviating my concern, I was rather worried when I got told not to do squats with my girls but I feel much more knowledgeable now

I would however still like to know whether weighting them with sandbags on the shoulders could also be bad for them?

Haha questions questions... Sorry for my curiosity :wink:

[Joshua Naterman]

Your basic limitation would be not having them use more than 1.7-1.8x BW on their weighted squat sets, regardless of what their projected maxes are. If you've got a girl whose calculations say her max should be 2.1x BW, don't let her do it. Keep her at 1.7-1.8. Once they're 16 (on average, as this is the end of puberty for the majority and bones are fully hardened) girls are ok to start heading past that if they want to, so long as they have good form. Obviously good form must be present before loading is increased, so even if they're strong keep them at whatever weight they can use with good form and make slow increases, like 1% if necessary, so that the form is not lost.

These numbers are derived from the percentage of bodyweight they are bearing in single leg squats, which is a fairly accepted safe value when doubled to account for two legs. Obviously that's a pretty good squat for a small girl. There is actually a very large number of young athletes going extremely heavy with no ill effects, as growth plates are damaged by massive acute trauma (impact) and not slow steady motions like a squat.

For safety, and because athletically they really don't need more for gymnastics, at this point in time I would still say stick with the above guidelines as the absolute upper limit of what you let take place, but feel free to keep a lower limit like just their BW on the bar if you're worried about it.

Too tired to comment more, sorry!

[Reveridian]

You sir are a legend in your own right. Haha na seriously thanks heaps I really care alot about coaching and I was concerned for my girls simply because of my lack of knowledge so yeah now I feel a lot better about it

Thank you both for you information

Go get some rest slizz haha

[Joshua Naterman]

Depending on how young the girls are, like if they are under 13, you may want to limit them to JUST their bodyweight on the bar.

You're welcome.

[Blairbob]

Yeah, Jeff, I read Greg's argument.

Basically, if you turn out your feet you can work around poor ankle flexibility or hip mobility. I would rather just work on those issues that load it up.

What I like about a BS or a DL is that also works the posterior chain. I have seen a lot of female gymnasts with very poor lower back strength. This is something I find lacking about the single leg squat variations and bulgarian squats and lunges, step-ups, etc. Still, if they were doing these they would be ahead of the game as most programs don't do anything past repetitive bodyweight deck squats or SLS or lunges. Hell, Cal men's team only seems to do assisted SLS which just boggles my mind.

There is much larger likelihood to get injured during a wonky landing or tumbling or even sprinting. G forces are way higher. I had this argument with two female coaches as they don't realize that sport movements have far higher G forces involved than basic lunges and squats. It irked me and of course, I over-ruled them.

I doubt I will ever go back to weighted SLS with kids. Actually to my recollection, I don't think I ever had any gymnast work them weighted besides myself since I never got a kid past 10. I would rather work a weighted single leg version such as the bulgarian squat, lunges, or step-up. I kind of enjoy them, but it's difficult enough to get them to the point they can even get a SLS or a few. A lot of the kids try but let's face it, a lot of kids don't and they hate strength and conditioning. Yeah, those kids and I don't tend to get along that well.

Doing weighted squats with a sandbag is still not as uncomfortable as doing it with a bar. As well the weight is probably more spread out considering the surface area. I actually severely doubt that doing BS affects their shoulder mobility as it doesn't seem to affect mine and I have fairly mobile shoulders when it comes to shoulder flexion (though I have crappy but passable shoulder extension). However, most of the girls will not complain as much about a DL compared to a BS. I don't have racks though we could probably use spotting blocks. Our bars at the gym have foam wrapped around them for when they are placed on their back.

However, considering many of my girls still cannot perform or move through a lunge properly, I'm a little more concerned about getting that done. L4's really are beginning competitive gymnasts and many still hate conditioning and whine about it. Still, they should probably work both as 1 day of lunges and another of DB squat/DL.

[Joshua Naterman]

I agree, I mean pointing your toes out will absolutely let you get lower. I personally have always liked using various foot positions, from pointing in to straight to out, but I do try to make sure I keep decent mobility with my feet parallel at shoulder width. I can always go down further if I point my toes out, and if I'm going much below top of thigh parallel there really isn't a choice for me with my active ankle flexibility as it is (or isn't, prehaps more accurately). Also, with girls you have the wider pelvis issue. Their hip width is pretty much identical to their shoulder width for many, which is not true at all for men. Hip width is really where your knees will track properly with parallel feet, at shoulder width that's really more of a hip mobility check unless your hips are as wide as your shoulders.

I guess as long as they know how to regularly screen for potential muscle imbalances and check form they should be fine no matter what foot position they use. I am wary about that sort of thing when there's a high ratio of kids to coaches (who know what they are looking for).

And looking at world records there are all sorts of things happening, and they aren't necessarily all ideal for long-term health but who knows? The Chinese seem to like to stand up with the knees fully together nowadays, and it's working for them. I have no ideal what that will do to their knees, but it's letting them lift heavier.

I defer to Jeff when it comes to pretty much all things O-lifting related, he knows a LOT more than I do there. A lot more.

I will say this for sure: no matter what you're squatting for, the wider your feet go the more you're going to have to point the toes out. At shoulder width you're probably looking at 15-20 degrees of toe point, which isn't a lot. That's the most I use with my feet that close, at any rate. Jeff, do you think I'm messing up strength gains by doing that?

Edit: Another question, if you've got the time. What's your opinion on the foot positions just in general? Is there anything you really look out for besides tracking issues? Are those even a concern with the O-lifting? I would think so, but I would love to know how you feel about that.

[Reveridian]

So do you always work single leg variations such as BS instead of doing normal squats?

We do arch ups (sometimes with a single sand bag) on the same day so I'm thinking that maybe I should be careful about overloading their backs and posterior chains? As doing both squats and arch ups could be overworking it... Is that correct?

In terms of pointing the feet I think it just depends what you're doing it for but I'm gonna start my girls working them with feet pointing forwards because of the nature of gymnastics itself

EDIT:

Um I am also looking in to buying this book; its called "Strength Training for Young Athletes" by William Kraemer and Steven Fleck. Do you think it would be worth getting or can you recommend any other books that would be worth getting? (Specifically in terms on gymnastics as I'm gonna get the club to pay for them :wink: )

[Nic Branson]

Kraemer's book is not bad though some of the information has changed. I was a student of his. Foot position can be very personal from athlete to athlete, the key thing is to watch the tracking of the knees. In most cases pointing more forward then out is better as pointing out can be an indication of lack of ankle mobility or bad motor control. Do not compare competition lifts to training lifts, on the platform you do what you need to do. To add a note in regards to the ball between the knees. This can be bad, while it does prevent the knees from drawing inwards it is not correcting the problem that is causing them to move in, and is a bandaid to incomplete movement training. I would highly highly recommend the book "Movement" by Gray Cook. It can be dense depending on your background. Typing this from my iPad will look from my pc tomorrow see how badly this came out.

NB (RKC, FMS)

[Reveridian]

"Movement" looks fairly good but the only problem is it's like $70 and if I'm gonna get the club to pay for it, it needs to be fairly useful in terms of gymnastics, not just for general knowledge on movement training. What do you think? Anyone else have any ideas about this or other books?

But yeah thanks for the information! I'll tell the senior coaches about the problem with the ball and see what they think. Thanks for your opinion

[Cole Dano]

Unless you are interested in FMS Movement is not a good choice, its very specifically an FMS and SFMA textbook. Athletic Body in Balance is inexpensive and gives the general concepts.

I won't pretend to know the particulars about training young girls, however Starting Strength is an excellent reference to basic lifting and has a very detailed chapter on Low Back Squatting. Its a good starting point.

[Nic Branson]

Mr. Brady is right in the depth of Movement which is why I mentioned about its density. Athletic Body in Balance is meant for the basics and some self assessment for the athlete. Pick the best tool for you

One thing I did not mention when teaching squats is that it might be worth your time to do some research on Goblet Squats. They are very good for learning the movement and increasing hip mobility.

Is there any reason you are looking at back squatting over front squatting? Just asking here, both are good movements when done correctly.

[Reveridian]

Mr. Brady is right in the depth of Movement which is why I mentioned about its density. Athletic Body in Balance is meant for the basics and some self assessment for the athlete. Pick the best tool for you

One thing I did not mention when teaching squats is that it might be worth your time to do some research on Goblet Squats. They are very good for learning the movement and increasing hip mobility.

Is there any reason you are looking at back squatting over front squatting? Just asking here, both are good movements when done correctly.

Hmm I don't need something that just tells the basics because I think I already know most of it so I don't think that would be overly helpful, but on the other hand I don't need something that goes incredibly in depth haha ahh annoying

Goblet squats eh? I'll check it out thanks for the tip!

Umm pardon my ignorance but what is the definition of a front squat vs a back squat? I know different kinds of squats such as BL etc but I dont know that exact definition. I was working just normal 2 legged squats because it is meant to be really good as it's a whole body exercise that not only works a number of different muscles but also stimulates muscular growth in general. Not only that, it simulates the taking off and landing phase of lots of vaulting and floor tumbling and can help build explosive strength. Do you think that my girls might benefit more from front squatting? If so, for what reasons?

Cheers

[Joshua Naterman]

"Movement" looks fairly good but the only problem is it's like $70 and if I'm gonna get the club to pay for it, it needs to be fairly useful in terms of gymnastics, not just for general knowledge on movement training. What do you think? Anyone else have any ideas about this or other books?

But yeah thanks for the information! I'll tell the senior coaches about the problem with the ball and see what they think. Thanks for your opinion

Gray Cook is generally worth owning. Period. If your club doesn't think it's important to be able to correct dysfunctional patterns in their gymnasts to help keep them injury-free then you don't have a very smart club. 70 bucks is nothing.

I don't understand why people keep thinking that there's some sort of special movement category that Cook falls into. I mean wtf?! Does no one understand the value of good diagnostic tools? I don't care what sport you play or even if you're a regular person who just schleps to work and back. If your body has impaired movement it's going to show up in one of two ways: 1, sports injuries and 2, "overuse injuries" like torn cartilage and degenerating discs, hip arthritis, etc etc etc. You're talking about everything from ligament tears to back pain to shoulder problems to everything else under the sun.

If anyone thinks it's not worth their time and energy to learn how to keep their athletes safe by using well established diagnostic tools, or at least to find someone who has those skills and have their athletes assessed a few times a year at minimum, then they either don't know how frikkin important that is or they just don't care about their athletes' health and long term success. Either way, it's not good.

Yes, FMS is a specific school of movement analysis, and yes it is a good one, but whether you learn FMS testing and corrective procedures or you learn something else, LEARN SOMETHING! Learn a complete testing process along with corrective measures. If you don't know that you can't keep your athletes safe.

[Nic Branson]

I noticed where you are at. Look up Andrew Read, he is an RKC and FMS in Melbourne there http://www.dragondooraustralia.com/ and a very nice guy. Tell him Nic from his RKC certification class sent you. Assuming he remembers me from back then. You might be able to get a look at the materials from him and get a better idea what will fit your needs without being to complex or to basic.

Back squats will have the bar behind the head and Front squats will have it in front. Both are very good movements and work the majority of body musculature but there are some mechanical differences. With the bar in-front your posture is more upright, you see an increase in abdominal work and quad work and you foot position is typically closer. Back squats usually allow more weight as you can increase your forward lean, and typically show an increase in lower back and hamstring work. Neither movement is neglecting any of those muscles, it's just a shift in recruitment.

My own personal preference is Goblet>Front / Back for teaching purposes. Goblet squats for the mobility they provide be them as a warm up or the actually training movement that session. I generally prefer front squats early on as they are more self regulating and teach a better posture. I use all three for Pro-Strongman (yes I have one, he's a beast and clean) and football clients, fighters it is typically goblet and front (depending on their past injuries). You have alot going on with a gymnastics group, at some point also consider what you're comfortable teaching and what you have time to teach as well.

[Joshua Naterman]

Nice! That's cool.

I definitely agree with pro strongman, they need EVERYTHING. Well, you know.. just about. What advantage do you see in using the back squats for your football guys? I tend to focus more on front squats, with good mornings to make sure they don't lose any back squat capabilities and it seems to work. This will probably just end up being a difference of opinion, but I'm curious!

At any rate, for the OP: Are there any other questions? As you can see, squatting is a highly opinionated area with a lot of issues. It is very true that you may have some of your girls squatting differently from others, you'll just have to do what works best with each of them.

[Nic Branson]

Nice! That's cool.

I definitely agree with pro strongman, they need EVERYTHING. Well, you know.. just about. What advantage do you see in using the back squats for your football guys? I tend to focus more on front squats, with good mornings to make sure they don't lose any back squat capabilities and it seems to work. This will probably just end up being a difference of opinion, but I'm curious!

At any rate, for the OP: Are there any other questions? As you can see, squatting is a highly opinionated area with a lot of issues. It is very true that you may have some of your girls squatting differently from others, you'll just have to do what works best with each of them.

The back squatting is done more offseason then in season. I've had good results using banded speed squats for increasing explosiveness. These are done strict, rest breaks are 1min and 2-3reps are timed. If they slow down for 2 consecutive sets before finishing them all they are done as neural fatigue is setting in. Also for anyone undersized who needs to pack on some mass, I'll use more back squats to increase the loading.

[Joshua Naterman]

That makes sense.

[Nic Branson]

"Movement" looks fairly good but the only problem is it's like $70 and if I'm gonna get the club to pay for it, it needs to be fairly useful in terms of gymnastics, not just for general knowledge on movement training. What do you think? Anyone else have any ideas about this or other books?

But yeah thanks for the information! I'll tell the senior coaches about the problem with the ball and see what they think. Thanks for your opinion

Gray Cook is generally worth owning. Period. If your club doesn't think it's important to be able to correct dysfunctional patterns in their gymnasts to help keep them injury-free then you don't have a very smart club. 70 bucks is nothing.

I don't understand why people keep thinking that there's some sort of special movement category that Cook falls into. I mean wtf?! Does no one understand the value of good diagnostic tools? I don't care what sport you play or even if you're a regular person who just schleps to work and back. If your body has impaired movement it's going to show up in one of two ways: 1, sports injuries and 2, "overuse injuries" like torn cartilage and degenerating discs, hip arthritis, etc etc etc. You're talking about everything from ligament tears to back pain to shoulder problems to everything else under the sun.

If anyone thinks it's not worth their time and energy to learn how to keep their athletes safe by using well established diagnostic tools, or at least to find someone who has those skills and have their athletes assessed a few times a year at minimum, then they either don't know how frikkin important that is or they just don't care about their athletes' health and long term success. Either way, it's not good.

Yes, FMS is a specific school of movement analysis, and yes it is a good one, but whether you learn FMS testing and corrective procedures or you learn something else, LEARN SOMETHING! Learn a complete testing process along with corrective measures. If you don't know that you can't keep your athletes safe.

I debated about replying to this part , I am a bit biased being an FMS these days. First off Gray really went into this just wanting to create an standardized analysis tool that could be applied at a basic level to anyone and everyone. There is no specific group it is aimed at, it's for everyone. Can't really put it differently then Slizz did there.

Training while having impaired movement is training with your brakes on you're fighting yourself. The body adapts extremely well to function around its deficiencies. That adaptation hides the problem and eventually could be the cause of an injury down the road. I think it is especially important for younger athletes to get screened. I know in my area I'll even do the screenings for free, depending on the situation. Ok done hijacking the thread. Sorry OP.

[Reveridian]

Nice! That's cool.

I definitely agree with pro strongman, they need EVERYTHING. Well, you know.. just about. What advantage do you see in using the back squats for your football guys? I tend to focus more on front squats, with good mornings to make sure they don't lose any back squat capabilities and it seems to work. This will probably just end up being a difference of opinion, but I'm curious!

At any rate, for the OP: Are there any other questions? As you can see, squatting is a highly opinionated area with a lot of issues. It is very true that you may have some of your girls squatting differently from others, you'll just have to do what works best with each of them.

Yeah ok if you think it's worth it then I will get it and check it out Sorry if I seem hesitant, I'm really not, I do want to make sure my athletes are safe. I've just gotta be careful what I ask my club to get as it's their money not mine

Yeah I know squatting is a big area that sometimes doesn't have any definitive answers but thank you all for the discussions and information as it all increases my knowledge base, making me a better coach

I can't think of anything right now (amazing ) but I'm sure I will have other questions at some stage haha I have started working BS with my girls and will proceed on to doing it with weights when they understand the concept...

ACTUALLY I do have a question haha what is the best, and most efficient, way to increase explosiveness through legs? We have sandbags and some elastics (as well as normal gym equipment such as boxes etc)... What are these "Banded speed squats"? Will they help?

Thanks guys!! Oh and don't worry about hi-jacking the thread! The more discussion the better it is

[Nic Branson]

Banded Speed Squats are not appropriate or recommended for your girls. It's a movement that demands a technically perfect squat before starting. Also considering the age bracket, you'd get far better results through more basic patterns. Running, jumping etc. In the course of their gymnastics works they are working on explosiveness, not saying that you cannot get a bit creative with more. For example; 10 Burpees (mine always include a push-up) followed by a broad jump and repeat. We do this for the length of the room. Nobody wants to do more burpees so I get maximum effort on the broad jumps. Now if your space is very large, you might need to make the area a bit smaller. Get creative and have some FUN. No need to load them up.

As for what the squats are. Basically you have anchors on the floor (dumbbells or what ever) that one end of the band is around, the other end is around the bar on the outside of any plates that may also be loaded. The bands increase the resistance as the athlete drives out of the hole and stands upright. They compensate for the increase in mechanical advantage the athlete is gaining as their lever length changes. Speed comes in to play because the bands also create braking which allows you to lift more explosively. Brief and dirty description. Again I do NOT advise their use for your girls.

[Reveridian]

Yeah I know a fair few drills for improving explosiveness I just wanted to see what you guys came up with..

Yeah ok they sound cool Don't worry I won't be working them with my girls... It's just good to understand everything and not just ignore what you don't know haha

Thanks for everyone's help!!