Nice article about the 2010 DGAC report

[Nicholas Sortino]

I like this because this isn't just some blogger with limited credentials spouting off (even if they are right) but a team of academic researchers writing for a respectable medical journal. I really hope this gets some real media attention and at least starts some shift in the way Americans view diet. Of course it would be ideal for the government to come out and admit they were wrong for experimenting on use for the past 40+ years, but I am sure that'll never happen...

In The Face Of Contradictory Evidence: Report Of The Dietary Guidelines For Americans Committee

[Neal Winkler]

I haven't read the report, but I agree, there is no evidence that decreasing sat fat is beneficial and that low-carb diets are dangerous.

Just like there is no evidence that more insulin = more fat gain when calories are equal.

[Tarun Suri]

Just like there is no evidence that more insulin = more fat gain when calories are equal.

Was that sarcasm?

[Neal Winkler]

Just like there is no evidence that more insulin = more fat gain when calories are equal.

Was that sarcasm?

The statement was true but I was giving a wink to Nick because he is a Taubes fan while I am not.

[Tarun Suri]

I think I'll have to reread Robb Wolf's book. I thought otherwise.

[Neal Winkler]

I haven't read Robb's book, but if he said that a diet equal in calories but more insulinogenic will cause more fat gain or less fat loss (on a weight loss diet) then I would argue he is wrong.

[Nicholas Sortino]

I haven't read Robb's book, but if he said that a diet equal in calories but more insulinogenic will cause more fat gain or less fat loss (on a weight loss diet) then I would argue he is wrong.

Are you arguing that if I ate 2000 calories on a high carb diet my fat loss (since this is definitely hypocaloric for me) would be the same as if I ate 2000 on a low carb high fat diet?

I know for me this wasn't the case. Of course I didn't do a laboratory study on myself, but I didn't change the number of calories significantly (during the rare times I count them) since I started eating lower carb but I have seen a definitive fat loss.

Would you also argue that the same amount of calories eaten from broccoli, for example, would have the same effect as that many calories from sugar? If insulin doesn't play an effect, how would this not be the case?

[Neal Winkler]

Are you arguing that if I ate 2000 calories on a high carb diet my fat loss (since this is definitely hypocaloric for me) would be the same as if I ate 2000 on a low carb high fat diet?

I know for me this wasn't the case. Of course I didn't do a laboratory study on myself, but I didn't change the number of calories significantly (during the rare times I count them) since I started eating lower carb but I have seen a definitive fat loss.

There is one study that showed people who were insulin resistant lost more fat on a low-carb diet and people who weren't insulin resistant lost more on a high-carb diet. So, it's possibly that there is some individual variation with how people will respond but that still contradicts the universal claim that low-carb/low-insulin is superior for fat loss.

Would you also argue that the same amount of calories eaten from broccoli, for example, would have the same effect as that many calories from sugar? If insulin doesn't play an effect, how would this not be the case?

Yes, broccoli and sugar would have the same effect, unless we are talking about some silly extreme like, "All your calories from broccoli or sugar" in which case sugars lack of nutrition might have some effect (or it might not, I don't know), but it wouldn't have anything to do with insulin. Insulin isn't even required for fat storage.

[Jay Guindon]

All calories equal, would the sugar still not release more insulin, which regardless of fat storage, decrease insulin sensitivity and maybe have other detriemntal effects? Otherwise you`re saying that if you keep the fat and protein constant and keep the carb calories the same, sugar and broccoli have no metabolic difference?

[Neal Winkler]

Of course the sugar would cause more release of insulin.

[Jay Guindon]

ok, I misunderstood what you were saying. Regardless of insulin and fat storage, keeping insulin production to a minimum (and blood glucose levels low but adequate) seems to me to be a good idea.

[Razz]

What about performance wise Jay, wouldn't one's performance suffer doing it this way?

[Tarun Suri]

What about performance wise Jay, wouldn't one's performance suffer doing it this way?

Depends on the type of performance. If the exertion is strength oriented, then no. If there is some intensity involved, then ketosis may be your answer. If you're running a marathon, you'll definitely want higher blood glucose levels. That is my understanding put in generalisation.

[Razz]

Well 2-3hour gymnastics trainings with repeated sprints/ring routines would definately need some carbs AT LEAST pre and during workout I'm guessing..What I want to know is if the body can run on fat for everything except your workout and then you eat carbs around your workout and the body will run the high intensity stuff on carbs. Just seems to me like that's trying to get the body used to two different things.

[Nicholas Sortino]

Well 2-3hour gymnastics trainings with repeated sprints/ring routines would definately need some carbs AT LEAST pre and during workout I'm guessing..What I want to know is if the body can run on fat for everything except your workout and then you eat carbs around your workout and the body will run the high intensity stuff on carbs. Just seems to me like that's trying to get the body used to two different things.

That is essentially what I do, for the most part. I may eat a some carbs occasionally during other meals, but I certainly don't make any extra effort to do so. Just when I feel like it.

[Tarun Suri]

Razz, yes the body can run on nothing but fat.

There are essential amino acids (from protein), and essential fats, however there are no essential carbs. Some body functions such as certain brain functions can only run on carbs. However, the body uses gluconeogenesis to convert protein into carbs if need be.

I'm not sure if that addresses your question though.

[Razz]

Yep I know that, but it will not produce optimal training results running on fat and protein so I've been wondering if one can get the body used to doing anything normal on fat and intense exercise on carbs, by for example feeding carbs only around the workout.

[Cole Dano]

Razz if you're interested in this dig around Ido's nutrition related posts. He's doing just that and thriving, the man is VERY serious about his diet, no carbs and phenomenal work capacity.

[Razz]

Yeah Ido is what led me to these thoughts, he still does get some carbs though, saw him posting about yams and fruit PWO

[Cole Dano]

Yeah Ido is what led me to these thoughts, he still does get some carbs though, saw him posting about yams and fruit PWO

True, no carbs wasn't right should have said something like no grains, potatoes etc......

There will always be some carbs in most plant food anyway.

The nutrition forum gave me enough info to decide to quit being a vegetarian after 15 years, there's lots of food for thought to be found!

[Nicholas Sortino]

The thing is Razz, no two people will react exactly the same to the same diet. I personally I really enjoy only eating carbs around workouts, with the exception of occasional veggies at other times. And for the most part they are all Post Work out or a very small amount during. I don't bother with pre-workout meals. I feel like I have so much more energy throughout the day and my workouts are still capable of being fairly intense. I know for a fact I have been getting stronger, faster, more endurance, and losing fat. It is great.

So for me it is great and it works. It may or may not be so great for you. If you do try it though, expect a few weeks to be worse. There is usually an adaptation period to any serious diet change, I have found.

[Razz]

Yeah I'm trying but it always gets messed up by either drinking or forgetting to bring food to school or something silly excuses of course, that are all improving so far I feel it works with BCAA and bananas pre WO but not if the workouts are longer than 2 hours. I'm thinking next time I buy supplements I'll get some maltodextrine that I'll be sipping along with whey during WO.

[Neal Winkler]

ok, I misunderstood what you were saying. Regardless of insulin and fat storage, keeping insulin production to a minimum (and blood glucose levels low but adequate) seems to me to be a good idea.

Sure, but that isn't the point. The point is that people are making specific claims about insulin that are false (I would argue). Just because it's bad to have chronically high insulin levels doesn't mean its ok to make false claims about it.

[Tarun Suri]

Yep I know that, but it will not produce optimal training results running on fat and protein

Depends on what you mean by optimal. While it is true that you will recover faster with more carbs, many people wonder if faster is compensation for something greater longterm. This is a concept I heard here and there for a while now, but unfortunately I never dwelled on it enough to be able to elaborate further.

[Razz]

Optimal as in maximum strength and power output.