Would this work? Weightlifting AND bodyweight

[aldino]

Hi, first post here...

Basically for last couple of years on and off, i have been doing BB routines, mainly focused on gaining size.

Recently though I have changed my goals - I would rather be strong, and also be able to do things such as HSPU, planche push ups, 1 arm pull ups etc.

So, I am planning on getting some rings and somehow putting them somewhere at my house, to use for this kind of stuff to build up strength and balance.

Anyway what im wondering is, is it possible to keep doing a weightlifting routine...and also bodyweight exercises...im looking to do the rippetoe starting strength routine if anyone knows it, my current best lifts are bench 100kgx1, squat 120kgx6, deadlift 120kgx1.

This is basically what i was thinking of doing:

Workout A

3x5 Squat

3x5 Bench Press

1x5 Deadlift

Workout B

3x5 Squat

3x5 Standing military press

3x5 Power cleans

You train on 3 nonconsecutive days per week, so basically would be monday/wed/fri.

Then on tues and thurs, and maybe 1 day on the weekend, i was planning on doing

ring pull up progression

ring dip progression

planche progression

lever progression

Now would this be too much for me, or would it be ok?

Any advice appreciated,

Thanks

[Ari]

Personally, I really can't tell you whether it would be too much for you without doing the program with you and seeing the effects it has on you.

Start the program and see how you feel. If your strength increases and you don't feel terrible and start dreading working out, keep at it. If it doesn't help you to achieve your goals, do some tweaking.

Also, in regards to your weight training routine, I'm not sure how adequately deadlifts balance bench presses. I mean, sure, the deadlift is to some extent an upper body pulling motion, but there is a reason that a lot of powerlifters have poor thoracic mobility (this is why they squat with a very wide grip) - they do a lot of benching and deadlifting and obviously insufficient upper body horizontal pulling exercises.

[Scott Malin]

You can integrate the two, but I wouldn't suggest it in the manner you've outlined. As Rippetoe says in either SS or PP you don't get stronger by lifting weights, you get stronger by recovering from lifting weights. Do what you know your body can handle. Take out the bench press--there are more efficient upper-body exercises that won't be so killer on your shoulder joints. Actually, before I try and suggest anything else, could you be more specific on what your goal of "strength" is?

[Ari]

You are automatically assuming his body can't handle the proposed routine. He should work that out first, otherwise he might be limiting his progress.

If you train gymnastics skills as skills, not a means by which to cause as much local muscle damage as possible (typical hypertrophy resistance training), required recovery time is much diminished and 'overtraining' isn't really an issue, as long as you take some time off.

[Danny]

This might just be interesting to read.. http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=5618&page=1

Scroll a bit down and read Coach Sommer's long post about his son etc..

[aldino]

Thanks for the replies Ari and Coreathlete, what exercise would you replace the bench press with?

As for goal of 'strength', what different variations are there? To me primarily the goal is strength in the big 3 lifts, BUT also do develop core strength and bodyweight exercise strength (does that make sense? lol).

To be honest, the reason Im not just jumping straight into a full routine with the rings doing gymnastics stuff, is because as I've never done it before, I dont know I will get on with it, and I dont know what the results will be, and probably most importantly, i can hardly do half the stuff.

Therefore I would much rather just mix in the gymnastics stuff with a basic strength based weightlifting routine first, try to develop in a few key bodyweight exercises I posted, and maybe gradually change over.

I think the change of going to the gym 3/4 times a week doing weightlifting and then not going at all just doing gymnastics stuff at home would be a bit too much...

Interesting link danniboi...so maybe this could work...

While im coming up with a new plan I've actually been doing Crossfit ha ha...i need to be doing something, cant handle doing no physical activities

[Ari]

Well, there are a couple of ways to go about this.

You could just drop the bench press and replace it with weighted push-ups (getting into the push-up position with sufficient weight can be difficult, but bleh) and balance these with some sort of horizontal rowing.

You can continue doing it (as long as you are do it properly, powerlifting style. No flared elbows.). However, balancing bench presses is rather difficult because the scapulae are not free to move and so doing horizontal pulling movements will in fact feed an imbalance, not rectify it. What will rectify this is push-ups, because they are a movement in which the scapulae are free to move. Of course, you should also still do some upper body horizontal pulling motion, but the total combined volume of benching and rowing should be the same as that of push-ups. This is still poorly balanced, because the upper body pushing muscles will be receiving much more stimulation than the pulling muscles. Personally, I couldn't be bothered going to those lengths just to be able to contiue to bench, so I would just drop the benching. It's up to you.

[aldino]

Interesting info, thanks.

That routine I posted is very specific, so Im not sure how dropping benching altogether would effect things.

Although ring dips im sure would also be working the chest...

I still dont know what exactly to do, I guess ill keep on reading around and researching things :shock:

[Coach Sommer]

If you are working out correctly, ring strength work coupled with upper body gymnastics strength exercises will take care of the upper body thoroughly with no need for weights. None of my athletes use any weight lifting exercises for the upper body and they seem to have done alright .

I am still undecided about weights for the lower body. The Chinese National Team uses them and the Russians consider them the ultimate of all evils. My primary concern here is controlling excessive hypertrophy. As mentioned in one of the links above however, my own son certainly had impressive results. This may or may not apply to others however, as he naturally has a lean frame and is not given to excessive hypertrophy.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[aldino]

Thanks for the reply Coach, I guess just the thought of building strength and muscle without ANY use of weights...is just hard for me to believe

Well I think i know the plan...Im going to purchase some rings, and for the next 2 weeks or so I will be doing Crossfit until I finish university and go back home...then I will try to find some sort of gymnastics gym near where I live and have a go and see how it goes

Got a lot of research still to do though, thanks for all the help

[Edward Smith]

I think Coach Sommer forgot something. He does use supplemental weights for the upper body i.e weighted pull ups, hanging leg lifts etc. Please note that this would be for his athlete's that have progressed as far as that exercise can go or the next progression is beyond them (yet they are at a progression where the body is fully extended or the likes).

[Raizen]

I definately agree that you can building significant muscles mass with bodyweight exercises alone, if that is your goal. Looking at Coach Sommer's athletes we can clearly see this, though you also have to take into account that most of them have been training with him for a long time, and as gaining size isnt their goal, getting to look the way they do today has taken quite a bit of work. If you want, performing certain lifts like squats and deadlifts for the lower body can be employed without fear of hyperthropy in my opinion, you just have to control your caloric intake, and make sure you dont consume a caloric surplus. Provided you follow strength training parameters as opposed to the 3 x 10 style scheme, you should be ok. Though you certainly can do bodyweight exercises for the lower body, and they can be very effective. So long as you control yourself in the kitchen, you should be able to avoid gaining excess muscle mass

[alexk]

If it'll help here is a sample of my routine:

Monday, tuesday, thursday, fri - workouts

plus 3-4 days per week regardless of my workout Ill do skill training - Planche holds, levers, handstands and so on. Btw my current goal is hypertrophy as well so I increase the sets and crank up the calories.

Day 1 - Upper

Planche pushups and front lever pulls

End with some grip work

Day 2

Squat training

Hamstring work - GHR or the like

Ab work

Day 3

Handstand pushups and OAC work or weighted chinups

Grip work

Day 4

Deadlift training

Single leg squat variation

Ab work

[Blairbob]

I actually follow a mix of BW and BB/Oly lifting. One of my biggest obstacles is programming rest days. Due to my schedule, I make it in to the CF gym to lift MWF as Sat is generally busy in the morn and Sunday varies.

For upper body stuff, between HSPU, dips, and planche stuff besides rings, I can pretty much cover it. Especially since last fall when I attempted a BW+ BP, it really aggravated my shoulders. I think my shoulders are much more healthy now but I'm still leery of bench press. I still am doing a fair amount of overhead pressing because of the oly lifting and OHP is necessary in a BS, OHP, DL total.

Currently, I've decided to just take a rest day when necessary. I do a day of sprinting with some light runs per week as well besides other training. Most of my gymnastics training is 2-3 days a week right now I figure, and mostly at home, since I haven't been going to an adult gymnastics class. I, occasionally go tumble on grass during the week as well besides some swimming.

[Gregor]

I've just learned in international training camp for coaches (U.E.G. organized it) that Italian model for rings speacialist includes freeweights (to simulate movement) and also in Romania (I don't know if it's a model there, but some ex Romanian gymnast did use them).

[Coach Sommer]

Gregor,

Could you provide us with some specifics?

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Gregor]

I will post later tonight...But it's nothing special, just like I said how I work...I forgot my book for notes that day so, I didn't write it, but I will try to explain their model.

[Gregor]

basicaly they use weights to simulate the moves like swallows and planches:

lie down on a bench (on your back):

1. then grab some free weights on each hand and simulate the movement...From below push to swallow and hold few second and push to the planche and hold few second.

2. if you are turn on your stomach you can do movemnt for victorian, the same thing. But a lot smaller weights (here will go burning to hell your triceps, but that you already know).

3. cross overs with cables with straight arms for crosses.

4. from above your head you start lowering weights to inverted cross (small weights, don't exaggerate and tear your sholder with).

Of course this is not quite exact feeling, like on pulley wich is not exact feeling as it is on rings. But this are just a diffrent variations of trainings.

pulley exercises: here is a problem of heavyness: to short cables, only half a body weight work...Here you can put weights on your belt. Italian coach didn't agree with putting weights on your upper torso or legs, because he thinks that if you put on your torso or ankles you'll create an inbalance, therefore your maximum stress won't be in the center if you know what I mean. If you have inbalance with height of your legs or sholders on rings, the the problem is in on your form.

They use a scheme of putting weights on your belt by week or two weeks apart. Aprox. 5% of previus weight up. So if you have 70 kg, you are holding 35 kg on pully, so you increase aprox for 1,75 kg next week. In the next week (in this case third) you put 5% of previus weight (37kg) so 1,85 kg.

Of corse you can startt with higher weights or you can go with different scheme.

Week program:

Monday: 5 reps and the last rep is static hold for 3 seconds. 5 reps of crosses, swallows, combinations and so on.

Tuesday: just technique of swings and dismounts

Wednesday: pully with higher reps and the last is 15 seconds of static hold

Thursday: same as Tuesday

Friday: same as Monday

Sometime they change Wednsday for maximum strength (I think once a month). 1-3 reps on pulley with or without weights (depends on gymnast strenght and age) or on rings with or without weights.

They don't start at the very young age, because of joints and so on.

I'm sorry I didn't wrote excatly, because I forgot my book for notes at my room and this is all from my head and not all.

[Blairbob]

Very interesting, something like Coach Sommers DB/Cross article. I remember working with a pulley cable system for MU and Cross.