EOW Ring technique support position, tuck planche + more

[Rick]

Hello all

Basicly all of these were filmed after a hard ring workout and are my final "to failure" attempts at moves to fully stimulate and work my muscles to promote the best increase in strength, but I am still trying my hardest for correct form and therefor can be criticized on technique for some of the moves.

Height 6ft 1 ,181cm

weight 196lbs or 89kg

Ring support position

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To Failure

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Planche flat tuck mess around

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Planche front view (just tried to make it really hard)

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partial Iron cross pulls

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furhest partial rom iron cross pull (extremely tired)

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Critisize ahead

Rick

[yuri marmerstein]

Keep the rings turned out and lock your elbows during your planche

no worries though, keep at it

[Neal Winkler]

Doesn't look like you should even bother training the ring planche at this point. Unless my eyes were deceiving me, you had a lot of bend on your arms and even then you could barely hold it for 1 second.

As for cross training, Coach says you need to have a proper ring handstand before attempting it.

[Joshua Naterman]

All right, I can see that you are going to make the same mistakes I did in the beginning, so please keep in mind that what I am telling you comes from the personal pain and experience of a 225 lb, 6'2" guy with a similar build. You are thinking of the things you are doing as a feat of strength, and they are not. They are a feat of tendon conditioning. It is VERY important to understand this, accept it, and work with this specific goal in mind.

You need to not be doing anything on the rings with planche or IC. Right now, you need to work on your elbow conditioning. It takes around 3 years of constant work, from what I have gathered talking to Coach's athletes, to really build the elbows up to the point where they can safely handle straddle or full planche, and IC seems to take a bit longer. When I say elbows, I mean the inner elbow, and specifically the biceps tendon. Pull ups, push ups, dips, muscle ups if you can, that's all fair game. Dont' bother with iron cross, you WILL hurt yourself.

To work on your elbows, there are two things you need to do. One, follow Coach's progression for elbow conditioning on the rings. Start of with basic, locked arm ring support. When you can do 3x30s EASILY, no shaking, start turning the rings out. Eventually, you will be doing your support holds with the Rings Turned Out (RTO) 45 degrees or more. When you have a SOLID RTO support of 3x30s+, you can start widening the support to 30-40 degrees. Do NOT do that all at once. Slowly bring your arms away from your body. Points of form: Body should be straight. Shoulders should NOT be rounded forward or retracted all the way back, they will be in something of a neutral position relative to the side profile of the body. Arms MUST BE LOCKED! If you are not doing it this way right from the start, you are wasting your time if you ever hope to be able to perform a 'proper'full IC or planche. Proper elbow conditioning will also help to protect the joint from extreme forces, and will make you stronger in your other athletic endeavors. Having said that, if you have elbow injuries there are two things to do: Always maintain a very slight bend in the elbow( less than what you have in your video, if possible, because that's a pretty big bend), just enough to keep pain from occurring, or you can take it very, very slow with the straight arm work. Either way, trying IC now is a sure road to injury.

Here is the advice of Tom Weksler, one of Ido's students:

I decided to move on to the advanced planche after ive had a solid 20 seconds of the tuck planche. the outcome was that i wasnt able to straighten up my back as much as i needed and got "stuck" at about 10 seconds for a couple of weeks. Only after i went back to tuck planche and worked up to a full minute according to Coach sommer's plan i acquired the abillity to hold comfortably the advanced planche. Surprisingly, the next time i got back to it i held it for a longer time and of course with a better form.

lately ive gotten to exactly the same point with the Straddle planche but now i know for sure that im not gonig to repeat this mistake and move on to it too ealry.

As Ido mentioned, when you work on a skill like the planche there are alot of aspects (technique, balance, etc.) needed to be learned alongside getting stronger.

I doubt that additional upper body work could help you with your planche progression as much as just going back to the straight arm frog stand. I beleive that you might be surprised if you checked your maximum time of hold at this position.

Acquring this skill is a goddamn journey - sometimes we have to admit that we followed the wrong path and go back in order to fix our mistake and choose the right way.

Here is Coach Sommer's progression for elbow conditioning leading up to Iron Cross ( IC) work:

Elbow Preparation Series for Iron Cross Work:

1) XR support hold - Focusing on elbows locked and straight is critical here.

a) It is also quite acceptable to insert both XR support swings and XR swinging supports into this phase. 10 repetitions of large XR swinging supports can be especially challenging, as well as a lot of fun 8), while struggling to maintain the correct position.

2) XR L-sit.

3) XR 1/2 press - During this element, the athlete will press up as high as possible into a half press HS maintaining completely locked elbows and rings turned out at all times. Do not attempt to press higher than it is possible for you to maintain the correct arm/elbow position. Please note that this is an essential element in this progression.

4) XR HS - There should be a substantial degree of pressure on the biceps during a correctly performed XR HS. If this pressure is not present, in all likelihood either the elbows are bent or the rings are not turned out.

5) XR Planche variations - Some individuals may find that they are physically strong enough to proceed directly from XR HS work to the iron cross training as planche training can be a time consuming proposition. However for those who see it through, achieving a solid planche prior to beginning serious iron cross work will pay substantial dividends in the long term.

6) XR Iron Cross work.

You shouldn't start working on #2 until you have a solid 3x30 RTO support with your arms 20-30 degrees away from your body. As you can see, locked elbows is critical. Working long hold times is too, that is the ONLY way to develop the connective tissue.

Heavy loads close to the maximal strength of the muscles often produce more force than the tendons can handle without deforming. That is why submaximal holds are used.

I hope the information I have provided here will help you refocus the efforts of your training to make it as productive as possible! I would work on the kinetic exercise progressions but take it slow with the statics. Follow the WODs, they are an elite training protocol. They are not some bs that Coach posts to satisfy the lazy people who just want some workout or other.

You have a great beginning with your physical abilities, so have fun and be safe! I look forward to hearing of your progress! PLEASE ask for clarification if anything doesn't make sense, or you have questions, or whatever else comes to mind!

[Joshua Naterman]

Sorry, I make long posts!

Do all your statics on the floor for now, and use chairs if you need extra height for L-sits or straddle L!

[Rick]

Thank you all for your replays especially "slizzardman" I fully understood your detailed and usefull post thankyou

I think I should of explained myself better.

I am fully aware of tendon strengthening as I am a high level rock climber and tendon conditioning is basicly all climbing is. I have been working on elbow conditioning for planche for a solid year now and perform all static holds with completly locked and straight arms. All these videos were at the end of a grousomly hard workout and I was far, very far from my peak.

(they arent examples of how I perform the moves correctly)

I am capable of 60 sec of of Lsits on floor, p bars, and 30 secs rings, ( rings with correct support position) (still working)

also I can hold the support position on rings for 3 sets of 60secs ( there is some shaking at the end but that should go with continued training

On pbars I can perform a 10 second flat tuck planche ( locked straight arms) and it is something I have been training now for over a year and have seen very slow but constant progression on.

The videos were simply a play around were not to reflect my workout or the execution of the skills. I was simply asking If there was anything wrong with technique on the obvious ones Ie support position (ie shape and so forth)

I apologise that I didn't explain myself correctly but I have learnt something though.

I was aware that IC training was extremely tendon harsh but I wasn't aware of the progression steps (something I am interested in) also the fact that I should be following coaches program something I havnt used yet.

Could I be pointed in the direction of a coaches programme ???

I have btgb by the way

Rick

[Neal Winkler]

Coaches program can be found in the "workout of the day" forum.

[Coach Sommer]

Well done, Rick. Especially on the XR Support Position. However notice that as soon as you attempt to progress onward to more advanced ring strength static positions, the elbows are unable to remain straight.

Ring strength work is a completely separate animal from all other static strength training. Meaning that even if someone had a solid 10 second straddle PL on the floor or parallets, unless the correct preparatory work had been done to develop the biceps tendon on the rings, they would forever be unable to execute a correct PL on the rings; regardless of how hard they worked the ring PL positions.

My personal preference would be to see you first build to a solid, comfortable 3x30s on the XR Support Position. And then build to the same on the XR L-sit. And then build to a technically correct free balancing XR HS. And finally learn XR Lock-arm Press HS; all before you began to seriously work XR PL positions.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Coach Sommer]

You are thinking of the things you are doing as a feat of strength, and they are not. They are a feat of tendon conditioning. It is VERY important to understand this, accept it, and work with this specific goal in mind.

Almost correct.

Ring strength elements are in fact dependant on both tendon conditioning AND strength. There is a reason that very strong ring men like Coach Jeff and Mingyong look the way they do (Dillon is getting there!). It is the combination of high basic strength alongside of proper tendon conditioning that is responsible for their success.

For already strong athletes like Rick and Slizzardman, the glaring deficiency for them is the tendon conditioning. Hence as their weak link, this is the area of their own preparation that will break down first under load. Most other people will need to ensure that they are developing strength and tendon conditioning simultaneously.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Joshua Naterman]

You are thinking of the things you are doing as a feat of strength, and they are not. They are a feat of tendon conditioning. It is VERY important to understand this, accept it, and work with this specific goal in mind.

Almost correct.

Ring strength elements are in fact dependant on both tendon conditioning AND strength. There is a reason that very strong ring men like Coach Jeff and Mingyong look the way they do (Dillon is getting there!). It is the combination of high basic strength in combination with proper tendon conditioning that is responsible for their success.

For already strong athletes like Rick and Slizzardman, the glaring deficiency for them is the tendon conditioning. Hence as their weak link, this is the area of their own preparation that will break down first under load. Most other people will need to ensure that they are developing strength and tendon conditioning simultaneously.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Absolutely. You know, I knew this was coming!

The reason I explain it like that is that if people think the muscles are part of the limiting factor they tend to focus on muscles. It's important to remember that the tendons will be the limiting factor for ALMOST everyone, as I have noticed both strong and weak athletes complain about elbow problems.

I absolutely think that everyone, including strong athletes like me, should work on strength and tendon conditioning at the same time, but in my mind the strength work comes primarily from the FBE and the dynamic workouts, and the FSP are purely for tendon conditioning. I think that way for two reasons: One, like you said, strong guys like Rick and I tend to wreck our biceps tendon. The other reason is that as you pointed out in your books, the muscle tissue adapts and grows much faster than tendons and ligaments. Anyone who is following the WODs for strength or following a similarly balanced program (which many people here are not) is going to be building all the strength they need through that work, and the FSP will build the tendons and whatever specific strength and motor patterns are necessary in that position.

I intentionally left out the strength component, so I suppose I was asking for this lol! Thanks Coach.

For those of you who don't know, Jeff is... RAAAAAAAAAAAAWR!!! A BEAST! The first time I saw him I honestly thought he was a bodybuilder who had gotten into gymnastics at some point! He's like a 5-6 version of the Hulk! However, that's just his phenotype. He's thick, which is apparently what pretty much all natural ring specialists look like. It's pretty amazing, actually.

Dillon is... bionic, or something. He's not huge, he just looks like a really in shape guy. Then he starts doing unspotted elevators on the rings. That pretty much blew everyone away! He must have some interesting tendon attachment sites! He is also a very, very hard-working athlete. He gives me hope, because we were talking and he said he pretty much started out like me, stiff as a board. Now he is super flexible, and he's only been at it 4 years! Heck, he can do IC without elbow problems, so that gives me a good idea of what I can expect from myself with consistency and patience. It took him 3 years to get his biceps tendon to where he could do the straddle planches and whatnot with straight arms, and now that patience has paid off with him A) developing much more advanced skills and B) getting looked at by several Cirque troops!

Both of these guys are a class act. Very nice guys who love to help out, and spent a long time with me teaching me stuff after the seminars were over each day. Just one more reason to get out to Arizona this September!

[Joshua Naterman]

Rick: that is indeed an excellent base! Congrats on your progress! Your L-sit is far beyond mine. That's what I get for never training it until now hahaha!

With your rings support, are your rings turned out? I'm assuming they are since you said correct position. Start working on 2-3 30s sets of the wide rings support, with arms around 30 degrees away from the body. Use maybe 2x30-60s regular XR support for warm up. Are your first 30s solid? I know I'm repeating some stuff Coach said, sorry.

I think one thing to remember is that you should do your FSP when you are fresh. The reason is that FSP are dependant on tendon strength, but they also depend on correct motor patterns. If you're tired you may end up using compensation patterns without realizing it and that you may end up retarding your progress AND setting yourself up for injury.

A 10s adv tuck is a good accomplishment, but you shouldn't start training it directly until you're in the 15-20s range. There will be some debate about this, but you have to remember that you and I are big guys. That weight gets multiplied with every extra degree of lean, which means each degree adds more force than on lighter people. I have to be more conservative than you do, as I'm 225-230, and you have to be more conservative than someone like Ido, who is around 145. If you read around, even a lot of these lighter guys try to move forward too quickly and do sets of 5 seconds since they have a 10s max. There are a few problems with this. One, that level of effort simply requires more rest in order to repeat the proper position. Nothing is worth doing if you can't do it perfect. Two, the fact that the muscles are so close to the limit means that on almost everyone the tendons are going to sustain more damage than they can repair between bouts of exercise. That is what leads to tendon problems. Three, you're talking about 12 sets. That means you're going to take at least 15 minutes for just one position. That's a bit excessive, that'd be 90 minutes for all 6 FSP, not including HS! With 3-8 sets of 20-40s, you'll be taking less time and holding a more perfect position, which means you don't waste your day and you are going to progress faster.

I'm sure you saw Coach's IC progression that I posted, so let that be your XR elbow conditioning guide. The Workouts Of the Day(WOD) about halfway down the board index. They have a sub-forum of their own. There is a new one 4-5 days a week for the most part. If there's no WOD, that's a day for active rest. Jogs or whatever cardio you like, stretching, maybe some very light exercise. Or whatever special stuff you like to do!

[Rick]

Thankyou very much Coach and thankyou Slizzardman you guys have been very helpfull and have informed me very well about the importance of tendon conditioning and about training correctly to gain the best and not come out with injurys

I have changed my workout to include the IC tendon training and have changed the sets and moves on a few.

I will be posting a video soon to show my actual progress on which I hope will be a good reflextion on the hardwork haha

Thankyou once again

Rick

[Blairbob]

Pretty much Coach Sommer and Slizzardman covered it with everyone else.

It seems you are starting to take your triceps off your lats in the RTO position. This is good, but you need to master it.

To note, Slizzardman, not all rings specialists are built like Coach Jeff. Take a look at Danny Rodriguez, who currently does the best Victorian out there. I would say Coach Jeff actually is bigger then Gregor. I can't remember some of the height and weight of many of the Chinese Ring demigods, but I would look into it as some are not as big either. Yes, they all have a fair amount of upper body hypertrophy but not all of them do to the point of Coach Jeff. It can vary a bit.

[Rafael David]

who are Dillon and Jeff?! has video of them? I was curious now! haha

[Neal Winkler]

Dillon is in the GB videos.

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[Rafael David]

hmm cool, he should be very strong even ... and Jeff?

[Neal Winkler]

hmm cool, he should be very strong even ... and Jeff?

I believe this is a picture of Jeff...

[Rafael David]

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

[Ian Legrow]

i know this is over a year later. I don't know who Jeff is, but i know for a fact the guy in the photo above is mikael l. padruskij

[Blairbob]

I've seen Coach Jeff in some pictures either on the site under GB seminars or in pictures from the forum. Try that.

[Cole Dano]

Triangle (whatever happened to him?) was making a joke! Jeff is truly built like a refrigerator though.

[Ian Legrow]

Unfortunately, I am not able to read Satire over the internet, but if triangle was indeed being funny that was a good joke!

[Joshua Naterman]

Yes, Coach Jeff is BUFFFFFFFFFFF!!!!

[Cole Dano]

It's understandable, this obviously isn't a comedy site.