A Discussion over at Catalys Athletics

[Jay Guindon]

Wanted to get some opinions on this discussion going on over at the Catalyst Athletics forum regarding "myth of nonfunctional muscle mass" particularly the assertion that gymnastics is too time consuming and not as useful as barbell work.

"I disagree with Ido and Chris about gymnastics based training being superior for everything under the sun. In fact, besides some anecdotal stuff, there is nothing that proves it.

First off, while that stuff is, undeniably, cool as hell, it's also extremely time consuming to develop the skills to take maximal advantage of that type of training. Also, gymnastics based training was popular a long time ago until team sports became popular, then training for the sport-specific skills for those sports became more important than mastering the gymnastics skills.

In addition, the number of adult gymnastics practitioners who have become successful at training in that style is very low.

Gymnastics based training might be the shit, but if you take two twins, one doing gymnastics based training and one doing barbell training, then put them out on the football field or the rugby pitch, and ask one of them to run through the other, whom do you think is going to win?

Plus, for the simple task of looking better naked, what do you think, as a member of the modern society of North America (mostly) would be the best way to get there.

1. 10-12 hours weekly of gymnastic training.

2. 2-3 hours of barbell training and 1-2 hours of cardio/metcon?

How about MMA fighting? If you are training 10-12 hours for muscular conditioning via gymnastics movements, then when are you training your sporting skills?

Ido Portal has the leisurely means to travel to Europe and spend months learning from secret circus and acrobatic training masters. Do you? Chris Sommer is a professional gymnastics coach and he and his athletes have access to an awesomely equipped gymnastics facility. Do you?

There's a reason barbell based strength training is use for almost every single sport in the world. That reason is that for the time invested, it works much, much better than anything else."

"I don't think Shaf was falling into an all or nothing, I think he was making a case for the bells. It's kind of an efficiency thing. Assuming competent training in either domain, you're going to get better adaptations for less effort of learnign the movement from the bells. A power clean can be taught in minutes. Same with the press.

If you're an athlete in most sports you can win some efficiency by keeping your power/strength training less skill intensive. I buy it.

Might we also suggest scaling issues? How would you get a 300lb lineman upper body power from gymnastics as easily as from bells? It's out of my realm, so i'd be happy to hear methods."

__________________

I agree with Shaf.

1. High level gymnastics moves require high technical proficiency, which is a waste of time for someone training for a sport.

2. Static holds have little strength transference beyond 15 degrees around the hold.

3. Strength training is secondary to sport training.

4. Equipment and spotting is not practical for everyone.

5. Progression with gymnastics exercises is very slow.

Bodyweight exercises can be incorporated into strength training for sports, like Weighted Dips, Weighted Chinups, and various high rep stuff, but that's not really gymnastics.

Any thoughts on these comments?

[Neal Winkler]

I think if you could only use one tool, then there is nothing you can't do with a barbell. You can get both your upper and lower body to elite levels of strength and power. With gymnastics, this is only true of the upper body.

(1) I think that will turn out to be untrue after Coach Sommer releases all his books. He has stated that he separated the technical aspects of gymnastics from the physical preparation that can be used for fitness purposes. We'll have to wait to be sure of what exactly he has cooked up, of course, but nothing he has released yet indicated that the exercises will require 5 hours per day to get the technique down. Everyone is doing fine thus far progressing on normal types of schedules (3-6 hours per week).

It's true that gymnastics training may not be appropriate sport specific training for all sports, in that, it is the only tool or method that you need. For some sports it is though, like parkour/freerunning or martial arts tricking. But so what? There is plenty to learn here that I have never ever seen discussed anywhere else in S&C community that can be applied to a multitude of sports. Also, who has suggested that sprinters or football players train as a gymnasts does? Maybe someone did in the thread, but I haven't read it yet. I certainly would make no such claim.

(2) This doesn't seem to be true, exactly. For example, you can improve your pullups by doing front levers.

(3) In what respect is this a benefit to barbells?

(4) Thus far, everything released by Coach or Ido can be safely performed without a spotter. Equipment may not be practical as gyms don't have everything, but some people also have situations where they can't have a barbell. With the internet, a trip to Home Depot, and some time on your hands you can make a lot of equipment for cheap.

(5) This is a issue of framing. The units of progression in gymnastics are slower, but that does not necessarily mean that the ability of the muscles to display strength progresses slower.

Miscellaneous comments: It's true that gymnastics is not appropriate for everyone, such as the 300lbs. linebacker. He will never do planche and shouldn't bother trying.

I'll come back after I read the thread.

[Neal Winkler]

Ok, read the thread. I thought those last comments were yours. They were Donald Lee's. I'm sure he'll come back with guns a blazin on me.

[braindx]

From what I've seen....

Anyone who knows proper progressions and has a knowledge of how to program them effectively for both barbell and bodyweight work almost universally agrees that bodyweight strength training can be nearly or as effective as pure barbell work or a hybrid.

I'll continue posting if that discussion goes anywhere though (I'm Steven Low obviously). Also, Coach Sommer posted before me so... this could be interesting stuff.

Also, this is the thread:

http://www.performancemenu.com/forum/sh ... php?t=5358

OP didn't link it when I relooked at his post...

[Neal Winkler]

Coach made the same point I did about the separation of strength/power training from technique training.

I don't know why everyone says the only reason gymnasts hypertrophy is because they train many hours per day. EVERY ELITE ATHLETE TRAINS MANY HOURS PER DAY.

Do football players only get muscular because they train 4 hours per day? Professional rugby players? No one says those things about those sports, so why gymnastics? Maybe no one should bother squatting to get bigger since football players and sprinters use that exercise and it only works for them because they train many hours per day.

[Nic Scheelings]

I think the comment about a powerclean being able to be taught in minutes is a bit ridiculous. I've tried to teach people, even athletes and it is not that easy to just learn olympic lifts. Even still it takes months to achive enough proficiency to be getting any discernible power benefit from learning these lifts. I spoke to a guy who was a s & c coach of a pro rugby team in melb and he said he wouldn't bother trying to teach oly lifting as he only had the guys for six weeks and it was his opinin that he would need 6 months to see results

To suggest that trainin with weights takes no skill and provides instant results is naive (I haen't read the original thread yet tho). With th example of the olympic lifts I wuld suggest that the time required learning technique is similar to many of the basic gymastic skills that Coach advocates.

My two cents.

[Blairbob]

I spoke to a guy who was a s & c coach of a pro rugby team in melb and he said he wouldn't bother trying to teach oly lifting as he only had the guys for six weeks and it was his opinion that he would need 6 months to see results

When you only have 6 weeks to teach and make athletes stronger, it can be difficult to justify more complex movements. However, as with olympic lifting or bodyweight, there are discernible gains to be had with learning these complex motor patterns. They can teach timing, mobility, agility, etc.

Currently there is not much as ease or resources for fitness trainers to learn bodyweight movements for developing uber strength but it is changing.

I don't know why everyone says the only reason gymnasts hypertrophy is because they train many hours per day. EVERY ELITE ATHLETE TRAINS MANY HOURS PER DAY.

Yes, but gymnasts are doing much more strenuous movements with their own BW than other athletes. Yes, I'm sure many other athletes are sprinting or jumping in their sports but the amount of volume is far less at the end of the day. Then they condition and strength train.

[Guest Ido Portal]

Come on, I know Americans are usually obsessed with NFL and football, but the world of physical skills doesnt end there.

Using the same example of the twins - one a gymnast and the other lifts weights, compare them in most sports, and lets take something round and comprehensive such as:

1. Swimming

2. Light Athletics

3. Heavy Athletics

4. Endurance event of some sorts

5. Olympic lifting

(This list includes technical, endurance, power, mobility and strength components)

The avarege Gymnast will win as an overall, paired against an avarege recreational weightlifter.

Of course, due to the high demands of gymnastics, an avarage-gymnastic's strong guy is still very strong, mobile, powerful and endurant athlete. In recreational weightlifting - an avarege may have many weak links still, but to be avarege in gymnastics, overall you will be much more developed and round. (If training is performed correctly)

Yeah, gymnastics training will take more time, is more complicated, more demanding, harder, technicly challanging. I am not one to try to 'sell' it as equal to fitness training with a barbell, just as free weight lifting is way more demanding than machine work, but... You get more benefits across more areas due to this difficulty.

It is rather simple - demand more out of stabilizers, put joints in inefficient points of force manipulation in the ROM, put some active flexibility as a must for performing various movements, use extensive and intensive means to challange the neuromuscular system from a variety of angles - elastic, contractile - isometric, miometric, explosive, slow, power oriented, control your whole body in space while you perform conditioning to a certain muscle groups, etc... Obviously - this is HARD stuff. Much harder than lifting a barbell...

Hard stuff make you stronger, unless it kills you. (In the Israely Defence Force we say: 'and if it kills you, it makes your mother stronger...')

Ido.

[Donald Lee]

I love gymnastics and think someone brought up in gymnastics could continue to utilize it for his strength training for sports.

I don't find static holds to be worth it though, considering the time commitment necessary. Depending on the athlete and sport, you don't know how long the off-season is.

The general strength movements outlined in BTGB could be used, but I still don't see the point. If you have weights, you might as well use them. I don't see why you need to make things harder by having to use progressions and scaling, when you can easily see progress with the weight going up when lifting weights. Kinesthetic awareness, body tightness, joint strength, etc. are all benefits I see that would be great if done from youth, but as a 18-30+ year old athlete, I don't think it's practical, considering all the other options available.

[Coach Sommer]

Kinesthetic awareness, body tightness, joint strength, etc. are all benefits I see that would be great if done from youth, but as a 18-30+ year old athlete, I don't think it's practical, considering all the other options available.

This is a somewhat contradictory attitude considering your recent experiences playing ball at the park and the excellent results of some of the other older and larger trainees who have embraced Gymnastic Strength Training™.

Train with 1-5 reps and do nothing else and you can easily be as non-functional as a muscled up hippo.

I experienced that a week ago. I was playing some baseball and volleyball at the park, and I felt like I was fifty trying to bend over and move laterally. Squats and deadlifts had zero transferrence that I could tell...haha.

Often times it simply boils down to people being reluctant to get out of their comfort zone; even when that zone is not producing the results they are looking for.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Donald Lee]

Coach Sommer,

I don't train for any athletic endeavors outside of the gym anymore. I was training to become an officer for the Marine Corps, but I'm no longer pursuing that route anymore. I don't play any sports. I played basketball for the first time in about 2 years 2 days ago. I do go biking and jogging frequently though.

Basically, I don't move around much, which shows when I try to play a real sport.

I think gymnastics, as a long term approach to sports training, is viable, but not as a short-term approach. I'm not saying it can't be done, since a lot of high level athletes do well no matter what type of strength training they do, but I don't see it as something a young adult athlete should pick up to help with his sport.

[Coach Sommer]

You are of course entitled to your opinion. However, and please excuse me for being frank, as you have not made a concerted personal effort to see whether or not Gymnastic Strength Training™ would be beneficial to you; your opinion regarding its efficacy for older trainees is mere supposition.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Joshua Naterman]

I love gymnastics and think someone brought up in gymnastics could continue to utilize it for his strength training for sports.

I don't find static holds to be worth it though, considering the time commitment necessary. Depending on the athlete and sport, you don't know how long the off-season is.

The general strength movements outlined in BTGB could be used, but I still don't see the point. If you have weights, you might as well use them. I don't see why you need to make things harder by having to use progressions and scaling, when you can easily see progress with the weight going up when lifting weights. Kinesthetic awareness, body tightness, joint strength, etc. are all benefits I see that would be great if done from youth, but as a 18-30+ year old athlete, I don't think it's practical, considering all the other options available.

HAHAHAHA!!!! I'm sorry for the possible offense of the laughter, but this is fine comedy. I am 28 years old, halfway to being 29. My spatial awareness has increased quite a lot, as well as my comfort in awkward positions, since starting here last February. In just the small amount of sparring for fun that I have done I can tell a difference, especially when scrambling. In addition, running through the woods or a playground parkour-style has become both more fun and easier, because I am more familiar with how my body feels in different positions. My overall mobility as well as my confidence in movement has increased. When I spend a bit more time with Ido's floreio work it will increase far more.

As an 18-30+ year old athlete weighting 225 lbs and standing at 6'2" tall, I can tell you for certain that dedicated gymnastic work will make a noticeable difference for many athletes. There will always be differences in applicability from one sport to another, but no one argues that basic strength is important no matter what sport you play. BtGB is all about basic strength. We know that the body responds well to changing stimuli frequently while maintaining relative intensities. That is basic sports science at this point. Gymnastic work is a much bigger change of stimulus for the body than changing your grip or angle on bench press, spreading your feet on squats, switching your grip on deadlifts, or moving from dumbbells to barbells on bicep curls. Why would you not use such a powerful tool for basic strength and conditioning? Even if you want to do a hybrid program, the gymnastic work offers a powerful and very useful tool.

As for the long-term versus short term approach, NOTHING is worthwhile as a short term approach. I don't care if you are talking about machines, bells of the various sorts, gymnastics, or anything else. If you only do it for a little while and then stop training, you will not reap significant benefits from your training. All athletic success relies on long-term training. That was either a poorly thought out or poorly written statement.

Your statement about not thinking that young athletes should use gymnastic techniques as a training modality goes directly against the experience of the top competitors in track and field. Every single one of those events benefits from gymnastic work, which is why so many top track and field athletes use gymnastic work as part of their training. Furthermore, it shows that you have not yet had the experience of training with the BtGB modality for a long enough consistent duration of proper programming. If you did, you would not be feeling like an old man. I get out there and do all sorts of things, from occasional martial arts sparring to skateboarding, volleyball pick up games, and basket ball. Hell, I even move faster on my feet in racquetball. Not very often, mind you, but I constantly notice that my agility and performance improves. Skateboarding is very much a skill sport, and my lack of practice shows, but I have much more power and agility than I used to even on the board. Keep in mind that I've been running once a week for the past three weeks. Other than that there has been practically no aerobic activity of any kind in my life for over a year.

I think that your closed mind is due to the lack of personal experience. You should separate the lack of experience from the opinion that gymnastics is not useful for athletes. I do, however, think it is fair to say that many athletes will benefit greatly from a combination of lifting weights and gymnastic work.

I DEFINITELY think that the statics are the least time consuming item in the protocol. It takes me less than 15 minutes to do my planche, L-sit, and front lever work. That's 5 20s sets of each, with 75s max rest and depending on the day I do two different ones together. So 20s planche, 30s rest, 20s FL, 15s rest, repeat. Then L-sits with 60s rest on their own. You can switch around those exercises as you like. It's fast and actually makes a nice warm up for me.

Edit: I wrote this before Coach wrote his reply, but that shows that a much more experienced man has the same opinion as me: Your opinion about the efficacy of gymnastics stems from your own lack of experience with proper programming.

[Donald Lee]

Since my qualifications are being questioned, I will recuse myself from this discussion. I sense hostility, and I do not want to contribute to that.

[Alvaro Antolinez]

Well I´ll post as a 33 y/o that started BtGB training one and a half years ago. I train in a gym that has some old (50 years) rings, rope ladders and pole, they are used by police and firemen preparatory guys but is also a normal gym.

I started gymnastic training as a fitness practice, before that I have swimmed, and for some time barbell training in a normal gym. Barbell simply didn´t work for me (it was my lack of knowledge and the lack of a proper trainer), it was simply the

4X12 of every movement that all the BB wannabe use. I improved, but training on my own and without a goaI I became bored fast. I even thought that being really strong was only for the genetically gifted or for the extremely devoted guy .

I´ve been allways amazed by the level of strength and skill of gymnast so when I came to this forum I decided to give it a try.(I jumped from crossfit, I gave it a try but was sore most of the time . It is a great training but too taxating, plus I have to travel a lot so I can´t find the needed hardware for sesions).

I never looked back, What I´ve found is:

1. You can train for one hour , 3 - 4 days a week and keep improving your strength and skills non stop.

2. Age is important only if you make it important. I´m in the best shape of my live, stronger, fitter, more flexible...and can´t see a proper stop to improvement in the near future (6-7 years of improvement yet? ).

3. When I started in my gym (with has all the usual stuff, machines, barbells, rack) I was with out a doubt the weakest guy there. Even I felt a bit weird at first, a fat guy trying push ups and pull ups.(I´ve lost 15kgs of net weight just with gymnastics and paleo diet)

It is no more like that, now when I´m playing with the rings, people is starting to ask because they see it works. Just some of the strongest people dare to try rings, and every time they try ... you can imagine their face! 8) They don´t come again, some of them almost can go down to a cross (not proper form , really bent arms), but giving the very best of them. Now I know I´ll get the cross someday, I´m certain from what I learnt here and from what I have experienced myself.

4.I know that with knowledge I can get as strong as the rest of that guys or even more with barbells(they work is a fact!), but you know what?, you can´t get even half the fun of barbells. In gymnastics once you achieve a goal, you got 100 other different goals to acomplish all of them different (And I´m talking of strenght goals ) plus learning some skills in the process. With barbells once you lift 50 next is 60 next is 70....., It can be fun "IF" you are competing or just messing with your friends, but for the lonely fitness aficionado gymnastics is more rewarding hands down, which make it even more fun if you train in a group :wink:

5. You need little equipment (non of that multy thousand $ digital, dvd, tft, speaking machines they need to buy at gyms to atract new clients), you can travel with it, and some training days can be done with bare floor (I have to do it when I travel).

6. I know your point, barbells have worked, are working and will work amazingly well to obtain great strenght. But I support exacly the oposite than you: :twisted:

Gymnastic strength training and conditioning asRx´d by Coach Sommers is maybe the best all around fitness system for the general public.

[Alvaro Antolinez]

Oooo don´t be sissy! Now is clear you don´t spend much time in this forum as everybody is being extremely polite with you! . You must read some discussion between Ido and Slizzard, then you will run for for cover with your helmet , that intense they go!

[Neal Winkler]

Here are javelin throwers, training in gymnastics. Including, the world champion and US national champion.

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[Joshua Naterman]

If Donald's going to run off because of some adversity, especially online, then he's going to have a hard time convincing anyone to take him seriously. A better response would be to post what he has been doing for the past year or two, when he implemented GB work, what he implemented, how his workouts were structured, and what his results have been.

I have two thoughts on his last post, and neither of them are flattering.

One, it is not hostile to claim that someone has been the victim of poor programming when they feel like an old fart playing basket ball. I, for one, would like to know what his "in the gym" pursuits are and how he has been going about getting them.

Two, and this is somewhat hostile, grow a pair man! It's sad to me when someone is either afraid or unwilling to back up their position with anything substantial, even if it's just their personal experience training for a sport. As Donald has clearly stated he is not, nor has he been training for a sport in over two years he should not consider himself qualified to judge the utility of a training modality in a capacity for which he has not used it. That's just basic common sense.

I use my training to complement my abilities as a fighter, because that is primarily what I am, and I can move people in ways they are not happy about because I train using the GB modality as part of my training whereas the others I have rolled/sparred with do not. It is readily apparent that I smoke them, despite being far less technically skilled in the ground game. Even in a Gi, I go 50/50 with the blue belts, guys who outweigh me by 50+ lbs and have been taking BJJ for 2+ years. I have no problem whatsoever stating my experiences, and I do believe that this gives me some ground to stand on. I've shown some interested football players how to do what I do, and they all want to learn because they can see how certain exercises will benefit them on the field. Whether they continue or not is their business, but a lot of people want to learn because they can see the practicality of gymnastic work.

[Jay Guindon]

All sport goals aside, all athletics aside, would it be fair to say that gymnastic S&C better prepares you for normal everyday life stuff (I guess this is GPP) than other S&C programs (such as CrossFit)?

[JL]

People should obviously do what benefits their sport. One of my better sports is swimming. Powerclean and squat means next to nothing but getting off the blocks. Those may benefit leg sports like football and basketball, but swimming, forget it. I would bet on a gymnast in a swimming competition over most any football player of similar height. Simply because gymnasts have a more diverse upper body strength, and better flexibility, which is huge. I can't understand how people in America want football to be the beginning and end of athleticism. Primarily, I see it as a leg game with upper body being a slight plus. During the Met-RX superstars I have watched, NFL guys beaten by Bode MIller, Apollo Ohno, and Johnny Mosley in the bike event. That is a leg event the failed to dominate because of the endurance component. Crushed by Mosely and Miller in the rock wall. Were also slaughtered by Bode on the obstacle course. Seahorn and Barber did win swimming once or twice, though. Seahorn won the event like 2-3 times. I think gymnasts would do real well on the rock wall, kayak, swimming, and obstacle course. The pure leg events (bike, half mile run), I don't know.

[Neal Winkler]

Re: Football

It's because they are muscular, strong, explosive, ect.

[Richard Duelley]

The Virginia Tech Pole Vaulting Team trains with us 2+ times a week. And after talking with them they say their numbers have significantly increased since they started . . . like breaking school records types of increase!

[Neal Winkler]

First Javelin, now pole vaulters. Can you explain these discrepancies, Donald?

[Blairbob]

Many polevaulters are former gymnasts but my polevaulting training in HS (btw I wasn't worth a hoot, really) still incorporated what gymnastics we could with what we had. When I have watched what other PV do, it made me cry because that would have been so great!

All sport goals aside, all athletics aside, would it be fair to say that gymnastic S&C better prepares you for normal everyday life stuff (I guess this is GPP) than other S&C programs (such as CrossFit)?

This is really hard to say definitively.

BW conditioning is a lot easier to implement on a tight budget and lack of space.

Coach Sommer once told a story of an assistant coach of his moving away to train the football team (I can't remember if it was HS or college) and they made dramatic gains with his strength program using BW only I believe. As well, it can be much easier to implement on a scarce budget some PE gyms run on.

[Joshua Naterman]

All sport goals aside, all athletics aside, would it be fair to say that gymnastic S&C better prepares you for normal everyday life stuff (I guess this is GPP) than other S&C programs (such as CrossFit)?

This is a hard one to answer, because there is no central authority in the Crossfit world. Sure, there's Crossfit Central, but all they do is post WODs. They don't enforce trainer education, they don't even require that people opening a Crossfit facility have hardly any experience with Crossfit, and that's one fo the big criticisms of the "program." You can't even call it a program without quotes due to the lack of regulation, it's just a brand name. Having said that, I think that an intelligent combination of olympic lifting, gymnastic work, and various bells would be the most effective program for real world, random task performance. At higher levels, I think it's clear that gymnastics can play a much more predominant role due to the forces from giant swings and the like, but beginners like me who are not yet ready for that will benefit from power cleans, occasional overheac dumbbell/kettlebell walks, KB swings, DB bench, BB bench, DL, BS, FS, etc. Doesn't have to be every week even, I've proven that in my own workouts. The bodyweight work should be the core component, if there could even be said to be one, because real world random tasks are more likely to involve manipulating your body in space than not, even if you are moving external loads at the same time. Because external loads are very common in the real world, I do think that they should be included, but you don't have to load externally that often to get the benefits of that type of training.

Because the GB program has so much more structure, information, and guidance than Crossfit, I really have to lean heavily towards GB being a far superior program. There may be certain Crossfit gyms that produce excellent results, but the results as a whole are mixed. There is also an extreme lack of knowledge concerning straight arm conditioning, from methods to performance impact, in the Crossfit community. I see straddle planches, but with bent elbows. (speaking to bent elbow guy) Sorry boss, but you're missing one of the best parts of the planche: the straight arm strength it can bring! That tendon strength translates into vastly increased bent arm potential in the gym, and greater safety as well as a wider range of abilities in the real world.

I will say that without at least SOME running, whether it's slow, fast, HIIT, or a combination, you're missing out. Gymnasts end up doing lots of sprints unless they are apparatus specialists that aren't Vault or Floor. Maybe they do in the other specialties too, I don't know, but I know for sure that those guys get sprint work just from their routines and practice if nothing else. If you include all aspects and have a truly complete gymnastic S&C, you're going to be a very physically capable person, regardless of how you may look.

There is always the issue of cost, though simple things like bags of dirt or concrete with handles for swings, and duffel bags full of dirt for sandbag work, can be implemented easily and cheaply by anyone, so developing a good multi-modality program based around GB work would be easy for anyone who has the experience. Unfortunately, there are very few people with that experience. I'm playing with the idea of starting a nonprofit with the goal of popularizing and spreading the experience and information once I have achieved more. Until I know for myself how to program this all, it's really not going to be possible, but I'm working on it.