Steady State Training Cycle

[Nilan]

Yeah, L and HS can be done pretty often but they do have their limits. With HS, it tends to be wrists, sometimes shoulders or elbows. With L, mainly your hip flexors or abs just get fried.

Duly noted 8)

Thanks a million Blairbob!

[conditioningdaniel]

I understand that for all statics up until and including advanced "flat tuck" we have to accumulate a total of 60s for that workout.

IE max advanced tuck planche 30s, you use 4 sets x 15s or if it was max 20s you use 6 x 15s, repeat for the required number of days per week.

My next question is, I know that for half lay and straddle it is recommended that we do not exceed static holds of 15s, once we can hold one of those progressions for 15s we move onto the next more challenging progression.

In regard to work sets, how much time should we accumulate for half lay and straddle TOTAL per workout, surely 60s is too much?

[Joshua Naterman]

I understand that for all statics up until and including advanced "flat tuck" we have to accumulate a total of 60s for that workout.

IE max advanced tuck planche 30s, you use 4 sets x 15s or if it was max 20s you use 6 x 15s, repeat for the required number of days per week.

My next question is, I know that for half lay and straddle it is recommended that we do not exceed static holds of 15s, once we can hold one of those progressions for 15s we move onto the next more challenging progression.

In regard to work sets, how much time should we accumulate for half lay and straddle TOTAL per workout, surely 60s is too much?

I have never recommended more than 4 sets for FSP work, regardless of hold time. I think that is a good rule to go by. I can't be more specific anymore, 2nd ed of BtGB has extremely specific, week by week progressions that address all of these questions completely.

[conditioningdaniel]

Thanks for the quick response Josh, any idea when that edition will be out?

[Joshua Naterman]

Thanks for the quick response Josh, any idea when that edition will be out?

No, sorry.

[rawatenator]

I would like some advice on developing a SSC workout. I want to train 4 days per week: M/T/Fr/Sa. Should I do Lsit, FL, BL, Frogstand work EVERY day, or should I distribute the static exercises over several days.

Also, should I also try to apply the SSC workout philosophy to FBE? That is, should I workout at less than my maximum with volume for about 8 weeks before retesting my max. Or, should I gradually increase intensity as I get stronger on a weekly basis?

Lastly, without paying much attention to the SSC earlier, I developed a tuck planche hold for 15-20 sec without doing FS for 60 sec. Now, I am planning to go back and strengthen my frogstand. Should I continue to train tuck planche, or should I wait until I get a good 60s frogstand.

[Rik de Kort]

Also, should I also try to apply the SSC workout philosophy to FBE? That is, should I workout at less than my maximum with volume for about 8 weeks before retesting my max. Or, should I gradually increase intensity as I get stronger on a weekly basis?

I'm not entirely sure, but I've never seen anything about it. And I wouldn't do it as long as you have the ability to progress from workout to workout. You have to know when to back off, though.

Your FSP are done before every workout, as a warmup thing. That's why you're doing sets for 50% of your max hold time, so they aren't too taxing.

[Cole Dano]

To my understanding one reason for SSC with the FSPs is due to the fact that changing intensity is so difficult. In other words, say you are doing PL Leans, a one centimeter shift can go from being manageable to falling on your face.

So staying at one position and not playing around all the time saves a ton of neural energy. Get used to a position work it for a while move on, rather than always fight on the edge.

With this idea of holding the position constant, the only variable is time in the static. First it ramps to the desired goal, then change position and start from your minimum time.

FBEs have the added variable of reps and the intensity is generally much easier to manage, a little shift here or there doesn't magnify like it does in most FSPs. So since it's so easy to add reps over time and most people have good instincts about when they are ready to fail, there is no special need to do an SSC.

A possible exception to this could be something like treating the SSC as a modified Grease the Groove approach. The whole purpose of GtG being to increase neural efficiency, which is precisely what is happening in a SSC.

Of course on top of that, the SSC approach is more conservative in allowing connective tissue to catch up, which makes it a good thing to fall back on if your having joint issues to make sure you're fully adapted.

[rawatenator]

A possible exception to this could be something like treating the SSC as a modified Grease the Groove approach. The whole purpose of GtG being to increase neural efficiency, which is precisely what is happening in a SSC.

Of course on top of that, the SSC approach is more conservative in allowing connective tissue to catch up, which makes it a good thing to fall back on if your having joint issues to make sure you're fully adapted.

OK Cool, do SSC for FBE ONLY when afraid that joint damage is occurring, otherwise slowly increasing intensity as strength increases is ok. Thanks Guys.

[FedorG]

I've read here on the forum about the FSP. Why is it most common to use this BEFORE the main workout? If my main focus is the dynamic exercises and I really want to perform at my best in those dynamic exercises is it okay to put in the FSP after the main workout?

[Rik de Kort]

The 50% of max protocol ensures you are not working too hard, so it's more of a warmup/skill work thing.

[FedorG]

The 50% of max protocol ensures you are not working too hard, so it's more of a warmup/skill work thing.

But even if I do 50% of max I get tired. I could still do this after my main workout?

[Coach Sommer]

But even if I do 50% of max I get tired.

- Tired is fine, too tired is not.

- If you are feeling the FSP work to this degree, then that is where your primary efforts should be and not in the FBE work. Continue to do the FSP first and then finish your workout with whatever level FBE you are capable of for that day.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[FedorG]

But even if I do 50% of max I get tired.

- Tired is fine, too tired is not.

- If you are feeling the FSP work to this degree, then that is where your primary efforts should be and not in the FBE work. Continue to do the FSP first and then finish your workout with whatever level FBE you are capable of for that day.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Would you also recommend this to a athlete who has the dynamic exercises (for explosiveness and power output) as his main focus?

[Coach Sommer]

If you are this weak at FSP, you are unprepared to make dynamic exercises your primary focus. First we walk, then we run.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[FedorG]

If you are this weak at FSP, you are unprepared to make dynamic exercises your primary focus. First we walk, then we run.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Thanks for putting in the time and answering my questions. I really appreciate it =)

At what level are you considered strong enough at the FSP?

I tried some FSP after my workout today. Tried to hold everything 4-5sec. I could manage a advanced tuck plance (hands on dumbbells), front lever with one leg straight and one leg bent (on a pullup bar), advanced tuck back lever (pullup bar). L-sit I have already trained for some time now. I feel my straight arm strength is pretty low compared to my pushing/bent arm strength and especially low compared to a gymnast haha.

I haven't decided to go full gymnastics yet. Because I want to keep on bench pressing. But I decided to add in som handstands, dips (PB and rings) and gymnastic pulling exercises to complement my bench press. I start my sessions with bench press. I manage over 2x my bodyweight so I have benched for quite a time. I can do triple clap push ups (one in the front, one behind the back and one more in front) continuesly. So I don't want to stop bench pressing as I feel it benefits my really well. To be honest I havent tried to do any FSP training before my sessions because I tried them today for the first time and that was after my session. But I have experience with a lot of other exercises that the second and third exercise suffer because I'm tired from the first one. For exampel if I do bench press at first and then dips, my performance would suffer a bit in the dips compared to if I would have done them as the first exercise. I have a hard time seeing that I would perform at my best in bench press AFTER doing 60sec total work of BL,FL,Planche and L-sit. But I think I could still perform all the FSP with quality after my main exercises because I ain't going balls to the walls with them.

So if I could still perform the FSP with quality after I have done my dynamic exercises with quality but not vice versa, wouldn't it benefit my the most to do the FSP after the dynamic exercises because my main focus is the dynamic ones?

[Joshua Naterman]

If you are this weak at FSP, you are unprepared to make dynamic exercises your primary focus. First we walk, then we run.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Thanks for putting in the time and answering my questions. I really appreciate it =)

At what level are you considered strong enough at the FSP?

I tried some FSP after my workout today. Tried to hold everything 4-5sec. I could manage a advanced tuck plance (hands on dumbbells), front lever with one leg straight and one leg bent (on a pullup bar), advanced tuck back lever (pullup bar). L-sit I have already trained for some time now. I feel my straight arm strength is pretty low compared to my pushing/bent arm strength and especially low compared to a gymnast haha.

I haven't decided to go full gymnastics yet. Because I want to keep on bench pressing. But I decided to add in som handstands, dips (PB and rings) and gymnastic pulling exercises to complement my bench press. I start my sessions with bench press. I manage over 2x my bodyweight so I have benched for quite a time. I can do triple clap push ups (one in the front, one behind the back and one more in front) continuesly. So I don't want to stop bench pressing as I feel it benefits my really well. To be honest I havent tried to do any FSP training before my sessions because I tried them today for the first time and that was after my session. But I have experience with a lot of other exercises that the second and third exercise suffer because I'm tired from the first one. For exampel if I do bench press at first and then dips, my performance would suffer a bit in the dips compared to if I would have done them as the first exercise. I have a hard time seeing that I would perform at my best in bench press AFTER doing 60sec total work of BL,FL,Planche and L-sit. But I think I could still perform all the FSP with quality after my main exercises because I ain't going balls to the walls with them.

So if I could still perform the FSP with quality after I have done my dynamic exercises with quality but not vice versa, wouldn't it benefit my the most to do the FSP after the dynamic exercises because my main focus is the dynamic ones?

I would definitely NOT stop benching or lifting. What I would suggest, if you want to foray into gymnastics conditioning, is to either use FBE as some of the warm up sets for your lifting (basically gymnastics as a secondary goal) or to put your lifting into maintenance mode and hit 3 sets of strength work once per week to maintain strength in your lifts while you put more time into the gymnastics work.

For you, you will probably get your best results from learning a really good hollow plank and then a good hollow planche lean. You have muscular strength, but your body will have no idea what to do with it at first. Give it 2-4 weeks to learn the positions and then start working on the pre-requisites. You will probably achieve many of them very quickly.

I'd say your best progression into gymnastics, having come from a less advanced but similar background myself, is to learn hollow hold, hollow plank, and hollow planche lean. I would do the first two for at least 2 weeks before starting on the planche lean, and don't go too far... at first you'll just fall on your face. WIthin a month you'll have the control to lean further than your elbows are ready for, so be careful about that. Once the point of pressure in your hand (where the weight actually is) gets to the bottom of your chest I would suggest starting SSC with the planche leans.

A good Hollow is the key, you will need to hold it throughout all movements. Once the hollow makes sense to your body and has been practiced for at least a month with all of those exercises you will be able to do PPP with good form pretty much right away. Your biggest concern should be patience with planche, because you'll have the strength to do it way before your elbows can handle it. This I have found out the hard way.

Have you had time to check out the prerequisite thread in "Getting Started"?

[FedorG]

I would definitely NOT stop benching or lifting. What I would suggest, if you want to foray into gymnastics conditioning, is to either use FBE as some of the warm up sets for your lifting (basically gymnastics as a secondary goal) or to put your lifting into maintenance mode and hit 3 sets of strength work once per week to maintain strength in your lifts while you put more time into the gymnastics work.

For you, you will probably get your best results from learning a really good hollow plank and then a good hollow planche lean. You have muscular strength, but your body will have no idea what to do with it at first. Give it 2-4 weeks to learn the positions and then start working on the pre-requisites. You will probably achieve many of them very quickly.

I'd say your best progression into gymnastics, having come from a less advanced but similar background myself, is to learn hollow hold, hollow plank, and hollow planche lean. I would do the first two for at least 2 weeks before starting on the planche lean, and don't go too far... at first you'll just fall on your face. WIthin a month you'll have the control to lean further than your elbows are ready for, so be careful about that. Once the point of pressure in your hand (where the weight actually is) gets to the bottom of your chest I would suggest starting SSC with the planche leans.

A good Hollow is the key, you will need to hold it throughout all movements. Once the hollow makes sense to your body and has been practiced for at least a month with all of those exercises you will be able to do PPP with good form pretty much right away. Your biggest concern should be patience with planche, because you'll have the strength to do it way before your elbows can handle it. This I have found out the hard way.

Have you had time to check out the prerequisite thread in "Getting Started"?

Thanks for the reply. Real good tips. I love how everybody is so helpful here on this forum =)

Yes I thought so too. I should be keep on doing the bench press so I atleast maintain the strength I've obtained. Yeah I've read the prerequisite thread, but I think I will have to read that a couple of more times so I will remember everything.

I was thinking of having the gymnastics as a secondary goal. Atleast for now because of all the stuff I've read really points out that you shouldn't progress to fast because your joints have get used to it and that's takes some time. So I will doing the bench press as my main exercises and then do gymnastics to complement that and have a controlled progress at a good pace without being concerned about losing strength.

Aha so when I'm training for a good hollow I still do the other FSP's like the tuck planche? I was thinking I could do some FSP three times a week with some easier variation than I could handle strength wise (but not joint wise?). For example in the BL I would only be doing tucked BL for the first month even though I'm capable of more advanced like adv tuck. Maybe if I do something like this 3 times a week for the first 1-2 month? Does it look okay?

Hollow body training first (working on form)

BL (tuck) or maybe german hang instead: 40-50% @total of 60sec

FL (tuck): 40-50% @total of 60sec

Adv frog stand: 40-50%@totalt of 60sec

L-sit: 50%@total of 60 sec

Then for the dynamic work I will complement the bench press by doing dynamic HesPU/HSPU and dipping variations (rings,PB). The horizontal plane work I will leave to the weights (bench press, floorpress, flyes) and some plyo push-up.

[Rik de Kort]

The prereqs are there for two reasons:

1. Ensure proper form. The basic body positions get drilled very thoroughly if you follow the protocol. They also ensure basic flexibility is present.

2. Ensure joint stability and integrity. This is particularly useful for detrained individuals, but don't underestimate them for trained individuals either.

That's why you should lay off the real FSPs for now; your body position may be off and training FSPs in that body position now will make it much harder to change to a good body position later on. Just ask Joshua.

The only FSP I maybe would make an exception for is the L-sit. If it's on the floor that is, because the floor leaves no leeway for bad form.

[FedorG]

The prereqs are there for two reasons:

1. Ensure proper form. The basic body positions get drilled very thoroughly if you follow the protocol. They also ensure basic flexibility is present.

2. Ensure joint stability and integrity. This is particularly useful for detrained individuals, but don't underestimate them for trained individuals either.

That's why you should lay off the real FSPs for now; your body position may be off and training FSPs in that body position now will make it much harder to change to a good body position later on. Just ask Joshua.

The only FSP I maybe would make an exception for is the L-sit. If it's on the floor that is, because the floor leaves no leeway for bad form.

Okay. What is the usual technical mistakes to look out for?

Found a good quote from Joshua (Sliz=Joshua?). So I will follow this advice.

"Don't get discouraged. The first thing you have to do is build a strong body shape for the skills you are intending to learn. A PROPER plank, reverse plank, hollow hold and arch hold are the beginning. Along with that you will need to be able to hold a proper hollow position in a dead hang with a pronated, neutral, and supinated grip. Obviously this can't happen until you have a solid hollow. A solid hollow includes having the chin tucked and neck retracted simultaneously. This is very hard at first, even when the core part of the hollow hold is somewhat strong. The full proper shape is everything, because it will teach your body the right place to start movement from and how to use your muscles for maximum effectiveness. As your body shape improves, you can start working on push ups, rows, pull ups and dips while holding the right shape. There is no purpose in building strength with a bad shape. I have learned this the hard way."

[Rik de Kort]

Okay. What is the usual technical mistakes to look out for?

Mistakes include not being hollow in the plank (includes not tucking the hips and not arching the lower back), not having the arms at the right height in arch and hollow, sagging in the reverse plank, not fully depressing the shoulders in the bar support and not being in an actual full deadhang in the hang. Those are the most common mistakes in the pre-FSPs. You'd have to ask Joshua for stuff like neck position.

Also, chin tuck and neck retracted is very easy if you know how, just try to make a fat chin. My family used to do that all the time when a fat reporter was on tv who had like 3 chins.

[FedorG]

Okay. What is the usual technical mistakes to look out for?

Mistakes include not being hollow in the plank (includes not tucking the hips and not arching the lower back), not having the arms at the right height in arch and hollow, sagging in the reverse plank, not fully depressing the shoulders in the bar support and not being in an actual full deadhang in the hang. Those are the most common mistakes in the pre-FSPs. You'd have to ask Joshua for stuff like neck position.

Also, chin tuck and neck retracted is very easy if you know how, just try to make a fat chin. My family used to do that all the time when a fat reporter was on tv who had like 3 chins.

Aha if I look fat while doing the exercises I'm doing it right haha just kidding. Thanks for the explanations.

[Martin Schulz]

FBEs have the added variable of reps and the intensity is generally much easier to manage, a little shift here or there doesn't magnify like it does in most FSPs. So since it's so easy to add reps over time and most people have good instincts about when they are ready to fail, there is no special need to do an SSC.

@ Cole Dano

Are you sure about that?

I am asking because Coach Sommer has been quite explicit in his book. He wrote "Only add weight, or add repetitions or increase the duration of a static hold or progress onward to a new more difficult exercise variation approximately every 8-12 weeks..."

I do not mean to question your knowledge but because I have been struggling myself with exactly the approach you described. I didnt go to failure in the FBEs but whenever I could do another rep with good form I would do one (staying in the 3-5 rep frame of course) while doing the FSPs in a SSC manner.

The problem is I have been on this cycle for more than 16 weeks now and have not undergone any under-load phase yet, not even in the FSPs. I am making progress but seemingly quite much slower than I could be so this is a really important question to me as I am thinking about changing my game plan to SSC in the FBEs.

Is this a good idea?

[Cole Dano]

That reply was my opinion to a question of why SSC programing is used for FSPs and not so much for FBEs. It certainly wasn't meant to imply that one couldn't do an SSC for FBEs in some circumstances.

Regarding the under-load, at least for me it's never been a night and day, this is now so easy, in fact I've often realized it after the fact. So that could be one explanation. The other that you are starting with something that is simply too difficult.

I would recommend you start a new thread, explaining what you've been doing for your workouts and what you feel isn't working and maybe the forum can be of some help. I do somehow doubt that SSC for FBEs is the answer, though it could be used as a consolidation phase.

[mattybongo]

Beginner here. Read the book. Looked over forum. Just wanting a quick thumbs-up on this SSC:

My Max times/reps recorded yesterday:

plank, reverse plank: 60s

handstand (wall): 60s

frog stand: 30s

hollow hold: 60s

arch hold: 60s

chin hang: 40s

ring support: 40s

l-sit tuck (pb): 20s

pullups: 8, chin-ups: 11, xr pushups: 10, hspu (wall) negatives: 6, dips (pb): 9

My Proposed routine for the next 7-8 weeks:

All Statics @ 50% max, 4 days a week, split morning/evening for convenience i.e

am: hollow (2x 30s), arch, plank, reverse plank, chin hang

pm: handstand, frog stand, support (3x20s), l-sit

FBEs @ 50% max, 5x3-5 rep protocol, 3 days a week

day 1: pull-up, hspu negatives, tuck row (bar), xr pushup,

day 2: pull-up, hspu negative, L chin, decline pushup

day 3: insert row (rings), dips (pb), skin the cats,

I will also be working core and legs but don't want to clutter this post with that detail, since it's not my focus. My goals long term are: Bulgarian Dips & Back Lever on rings, then other basic ring strength moves (muscle up, rolls). If I can one day do that, i'll be a happy chappy.