falling backwards on SLS ascent

[Amebix138]

As shown here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvBNIeGC5ro

I'm wondering, are there any ques or something I can try to keep in mind while performing SLS that might help to not fall backwards?

Thank you,

Amebix

[Joshua Naterman]

Hold a 5-10 lb weight out in front of you. You'll feel much more stable. It's a center of gravity issue you're having, which could be coming from slightly less than desirable ankle flexibility. When you're going down. pretend you are pulling your knee towards your shoulders. Does that make any sense? If ankle stretching and improved concentration on the movement don't help, stick with the counter-weight! It works for me lol!

[Amebix138]

Hold a 5-10 lb weight out in front of you. You'll feel much more stable. It's a center of gravity issue you're having, which could be coming from slightly less than desirable ankle flexibility. When you're going down. pretend you are pulling your knee towards your shoulders. Does that make any sense? If ankle stretching and improved concentration on the movement don't help, stick with the counter-weight! It works for me lol!

Just tried it and it worked like a charm, danke.

[Joshua Naterman]

Bitte!

[Erich Lin]

I think it's a result of not being able to easily Asian squat. I think i remember seeing some link on Ido portal for a squat therapy routine. Being asian, i don't have this problem Although my friend who is asian does ....

[Amebix138]

I think it's a result of not being able to easily Asian squat. I think i remember seeing some link on Ido portal for a squat therapy routine. Being asian, i don't have this problem Although my friend who is asian does ....

Asian squat? If you mean a regular ass to ankles bodyweight squat I can maintain my balance on those without problems.

[Erich Lin]

hmm can you do this...without weights

http://www.diablocrossfit.com/squat2-thumb.jpg

ass to grass. narrow , medium , and wide stance?

if so, I guess my hypothesis is probably wrong

[Amebix138]

hmm can you do this...without weights

http://www.diablocrossfit.com/squat2-thumb.jpg

ass to grass. narrow , medium , and wide stance?

if so, I guess my hypothesis is probably wrong

Yeah I dont really have problems with that. I cant stay balanced on one leg with my eyes closed for very long though.

[Blairbob]

The counterweight will help, but if you allow the free leg to drop as you stand up from the bottom of the SLS, this offbalances you as well.

[Erich Lin]

hmmm....yea i bet not being able to easily hold yourself easily at the bottom position with one leg is related. I bet Ido's squat routine will help...but I 'm probably not the right authority on this...for me it's shoulders and hamstrings...

[Joshua Naterman]

Some of us, and this is just a basic biomechanical fact, are put together in such a way that our center of gravity moves behind the heel at the bottom of a SLS/pistol. That means the point at which our body is falling down earth's gravity well is outside of our base. If your center of gravity is outside your base, you fall. Period. Some of us are put together in a way that keeps our COG outside our base even with ankle flexibility work. When that's the case, you literally have no choice except to use a counter weight. I'm a great example of that. My upper body is really big, and my upper leg is long, longer than my torso from hip to shoulder. When I pull my heel up to my buttocks, it is in front of the hip socket. No matter how you try to work with this combination, you're not going to get a SLS without a counterweight. I can get very, very close when I'm stretched well, but it is a massive strain inside my knee. So, I'm smart and use counterweights. I work heavier, don't screw up my knee, and don't get frustrated by trying to do something that is physically not within my ability.

[Erich Lin]

hmm i wonder if that is true... like if there is a study to prove the amount of force/stretch/whatever is necessary for a human not to be able to do it. If it can be exponentially larger with both length of legs + upper body mass as you point out, then that makes sense...

Pretty much , is there a lithmus test to find out? Similarly is there a lithmus test to find out if you can ever physically do a maltese, victorian, a pike stretch, etc.... cause otherwise that "some of us" is an unfounded statement

[Joshua Naterman]

You missed the point. The stretch isn't the major issue. In the case of the SLS it is a simple case of how long your upper and lower legs are compared to your torso. Having a big torso also changes things a little bit, because it shifts your center of gravity.

There are limits to the maximum ROM of every joint, foot dorsiflexion included. For someone like me, the degree of ankle flexion necessary for un-counterweighted SLS is possibly obtainable, but it would put my knee so far forward of my foot that there would be a HUGE strain on the knee tendons and ligaments. It's stupid to do something like that because it can cause serious injury. Instead I work with a counterweight and get two benefits: One, I don't hurt myself. Two, I am doing weighted work. It's harder because I am heavier with the extra weight than without, so I am getting stronger.

try to balance a flat plate on your finger without your finger being in the middle of the plate. You can't do it unless you add a certain amount of weight to a certain spot on the plate. Your failure is not because your finger isn't strong enough or flexible enough, it's because your finger isn't under the plate's center of gravity. That's exactly what happens to some people in the SLS. It is not an issue of strength or flexibility sometimes. Sometimes it is just needing to readjust the center of gravity with a counterweight, just like you'd have to do with the plate. It really is that simple.

[Erich Lin]

slizzardman, i believe i fully understood your point. Also, I also understand the mechanics of why putting a weight in front helps. In fact, that is what i recommended to my friend when he first started learning squats and SLS.

I also understand why it would be harder as the knee has to protrude out further. My entire point was where the optimality lies. Can one train themselves up to a certain point and not risk injury. Obviusly if i were forced into a pike stretch right now, you would tear my muscles, but with practice, I believe that anyone can get into a pike... My question was if there does exist the remote possibility that you can get into an SLS bottom position without risk to injury by training that joint/stretch. I 'm not questioning whether it would be harder or not for a certain individual . I am questioning the validity of it being impossible for a person without injuring them. I'm not saying you are wrong...i'm just questioning. I don't think either of us can say it is a definite either way unless we can prove it with some F=Ma formula etc...

[Nick Van Bockxmeer]

9/10 I think the culprit is lack of squat flexibility. Not saying that I don't believe you since you probably have enough experience to know for yourself. In the case of an unusually long femur this will be problematic. I'm not sure about the whole heavy torso thing, since coach uses weight vests on his athletes.

You can get very flexible through the ankle. Knees in front of the toes should not usually be an issue if you follow proper progression.

previous thread on this topic: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2742&start=0

[Erich Lin]

this is true... i just tested myself and my knees don't go over my toes, but with less flexibility, my knees need to go over my toes to compensate....

again, it may be impossible for slizzardman and others to do this without injuring themselves...but the only way to prove it is by going to the doctor and having crazy technology to prove that...not to be knocking on your door slizzardman, but you can't definitively say you can't do this without injuring yourself

[Joshua Naterman]

That's true, but I can use a tape measure and do simple math lol! You don't need crazy technology to figure out where your center of gravity is in this particular instance, at least in general terms of inside or outside your base.

[Erich Lin]

ehhh it's not that easily to calculate one's center of gravity...also if you're falling over, obviously your center of gravity is not between your heels and toes. Again, that's the flexibility issue. Your argument, before, was if going that far in flexation (is that a word?) will injure you even if you had max flexibility...at least i thought that was... i didn't think your argument was that your center of gravity is outside your base. That is trivial...you are falling over

[Joshua Naterman]

If you have to bring your knee more than a few inches past your toes to do a non-counterweighted SLS then you are turning the SLS into an unsafe exercise. That's the whole point. I think it would be fairly rare to find someone who literally could not achieve the ankle flexion necessary to move COG between heels and toes due to physical limitations, but if you have to move the knee way forward to do so you are putting massive, massive forces on the connective tissue and will probably end up with patellar tendonitis if nothing else. There are a number of us who should be using counterweights due to the increased safety of the movement. There are also many who will never NEED to do so, and I wish I was one of them but I am not.

[Blairbob]

I haven't measured the angles yet, but I wonder whether the angles of the shin are similar in a heavy olympic front squat or at the bottom of an overhead squat as a SLS/pistol. Hmm...

[Jason Stein]

Some of us, and this is just a basic biomechanical fact, are put together in such a way that our center of gravity moves behind the heel at the bottom of a SLS/pistol.

Slizzard, all,

I am not sure of your particular injury history, i.e. how many ankle sprains/breaks/tweaks you've suffered. (I'm sure you can save it for a later lengthier WOT post.)

I've had several type II and type III sprains in both ankles, and I know it limits my squat depth on my left side. I am still able to achieve full A2G SLSs, but require mild weight in front of me, or a slightly elevated heel (sometimes I slide a 1.25KG plate under it) on my left leg.

However, you and perhaps others here could be limited in your SLS's due to genetic factors. If you squat down and your tib/fib meets your talus footbone and enters a state of compression, that's the end of the ankle’s ROM. No amount of stretching or flexibility will increase this range.

Generally tall bastards with long femurs (such as me) suffer from this the most.

best,

jason

[Joshua Naterman]

Some of us, and this is just a basic biomechanical fact, are put together in such a way that our center of gravity moves behind the heel at the bottom of a SLS/pistol.

Slizzard, all,

I am not sure of your particular injury history, i.e. how many ankle sprains/breaks/tweaks you've suffered. (I'm sure you can save it for a later lengthier WOT post.)

I've had several type II and type III sprains in both ankles, and I know it limits my squat depth on my left side. I am still able to achieve full A2G SLSs, but require mild weight in front of me, or a slightly elevated heel (sometimes I slide a 1.25KG plate under it) on my left leg.

However, you and perhaps others here could be limited in your SLS's due to genetic factors. If you squat down and your tib/fib meets your talus footbone and enters a state of compression, that's the end of the ankle’s ROM. No amount of stretching or flexibility will increase this range.

Generally tall bastards with long femurs (such as me) suffer from this the most.

best,

jason

Honestly, I've always had good ankles. I had a bad summer once and screwed up my left pretty good jumping stairs on a skateboard. Never went to the doctor, but I couldn't walk for a few weeks. Hasn't caused any problems since, and it's been 13 years. I have fairly long femurs, which was my main point earlier. Sometimes you literally can't get your COG inside your base without a counterweight. It happens! Hell, I see it as a bonus. I'm forced into doing weighted work lol!

[Tarun Suri]

Slizzardman,

While looking up tests to measure dorsiflexion, I found that without knees buckling inwards, 4 inches past the toes is normal. However this is in a standing position with one leg behind you. Would this position change your assessment?

[Joshua Naterman]

Four inches isn't super bad, but mine goes way past that when I try to balance at the bottom of a SLS with no counterweight. That's why I use the counterweight. I have the flexibility, that's not an issue. It just isn't good for my knees, and I'm not dumb enough to try and to some bodyweight only crap when it's going to get me hurt. I use a counterweight and it works out great.