CBB Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Hello,two friends of mine said that it is wrong to extend the arms fully when you start a pull up from a dead hang (so it follows that you shouldn't fully lower yourself before you start the next repetition).Their argument is that extended arms supposedly put too much stress on elbow joints, which will supposedly cause injury problems. They say the same thing about dips; That you shouldn't fully press yourself up.My question: Do you agree with this statement?I have only been paying attention to the shoulders. But not extending arms seems like "cheating" to me because in my opinion the first few percent of the motion are the hardest (or at least it took me the longest to learn them). I have also never heard of this suggestion before even after having read many websites on the topic. My friends have apparently received some advice on this by fitness coaches and maybe physiotherapists (not sure), so there may be more to it.Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Picó García Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Ask your friends what they think about a cross, maltese, inverted cross, planche... with straight arms. The main difference in gymnastics compared with BodyBulding is that at BB you don't extend completely joints. At gymnastics is inverse. The fist movement you learn at rings is the support which must be done with a completed locked elbows.After this fully extending elbows at pullups o regular dips i just a kids game for the elbows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Libke Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 As far as I know, the elbow is a much more sturdy and stable joint than the shoulder. By way of comparison, in Judo competitions, where the rules are more conservative regarding joint locks than BJJ or submission wrestling, attacks to the elbow joint are permitted, for reason that the elbow joint is much less susceptible to injury than the shoulder, knee, etc. Unless the joint lock is fully implemented, the elbow can take some pull. Subjectively, I have never had a problem doing any gymnastics moves, either hanging, or pushing up, with a locked elbow. However, it is my understanding that when hanging, the shoulder should be actively pulled up into the humerous, even if the arms are extended. I read that, at least, in an article written about injury prevention and ariel dance, which concerns trapeze, rope, fabric, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Sommer Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 (I)t is wrong to extend the arms fully when you start a pull up from a dead hang (so it follows that you shouldn't fully lower yourself before you start the next repetition) ... Their argument is that extended arms supposedly put too much stress on elbow joints, which will supposedly cause injury problems. They say the same thing about dips; That you shouldn't fully press yourself up.Your friends are completely wrong in their reasoning.Yours in Fitness,Coach Sommer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregor Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Iron cross has 10000x more stress on elbow then pull ups. And if you do with correct progression you won't have any problems with elbows at all.So listen to the coach and don't belive evrything you heard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Picó García Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Well the main problem is the hypertrophy of forearms and biceps, but nothing serious thought :wink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBB Posted December 3, 2009 Author Share Posted December 3, 2009 OK, thanks for your replies!That's what I thought and it is good to get confirmation. Yes, I think these guys are more into "bodybuilding".To be honest, and I don't mean this in a negative way, I think that high level gymnastics are commonly seen as a sport with high injury risks, so what gymnasts do doesn't necessarily apply to the rest of us But I do believe that standard pull up form is full dead hang, and it's not a very demanding exercise anyway.And yes, I already ran into an awesome tutorial on planche push ups and front lever written by coach Sommer, so maybe I'll extend my repertoire further (have to say even the basics of the planche feel VERY bad in my wrists, but then again I already saw another tutorial on wrist conditioning, so maybe that's where I should start...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Sommer Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 To be honest, and I don't mean this in a negative way, I think that high level gymnastics are commonly seen as a sport with high injury risks, so what gymnasts do doesn't necessarily apply to the rest of us In this instance it is important to separate Gymnastic Strength Training™ from the execution of high level technical gymnastics skills in competition. They are entirely two separate entities.Yours in Fitness,Coach Sommer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Naterman Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 OK, thanks for your replies!That's what I thought and it is good to get confirmation. Yes, I think these guys are more into "bodybuilding".To be honest, and I don't mean this in a negative way, I think that high level gymnastics are commonly seen as a sport with high injury risks, so what gymnasts do doesn't necessarily apply to the rest of us But I do believe that standard pull up form is full dead hang, and it's not a very demanding exercise anyway.And yes, I already ran into an awesome tutorial on planche push ups and front lever written by coach Sommer, so maybe I'll extend my repertoire further (have to say even the basics of the planche feel VERY bad in my wrists, but then again I already saw another tutorial on wrist conditioning, so maybe that's where I should start...)Even for a bodybuilder, fully extended dead hang pull ups are more productive. When it comes to functional training, bodybuilders are often the exact last people you want to ask for advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liosis Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 Quick question on the dead hang form. I know it is proper to have the arms completely straight at the bottom, but can the shoulder area also be extended or should there be constant retraction? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Naterman Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 I always go all the way down to straight arm, extend my shoulders, hang for a moment, retract my shoulders, and begin my pull up. I am curious to see what Coach says about this.The reason I do my pull ups this way is to embed a shrugging movement into the pull up. That way I make sure I am strengthening the structures that move the scapula up and down, not just in and out. I have always done this, and even with 100 lbs of extra weight it causes me no problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Scheelings Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 I personally keep my shoulder pulled into the socket, relaxing gives me impingement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Naterman Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 It can if you actually try to push out instead of just hanging with a little tension, you definitely don't want to intentionally push the shoulder out of the socket, just sort of extend the shoulder blades a bit. And obviously don't go so fat that it hurts or impinges, if you feel discomfort don't go quite so far. That used to happen to me, and after a bit of the shrugs it went away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liosis Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 I do the same thing as you slizzardman. In fact, I have sometimes done sets of just the hanging shrug part...it seems really helpful in activating the scapula. I would really like to hear from coach about if this is a good thing or bad thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Naterman Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 Me too, I don't know if he has an opinion on the shrug work.I know it is recommended pretty much across the board in powerlifting, as a strong shoulder girdle is absolutely key when you want to lift heavy. It's certainly done good things for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Sommer Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 I always go all the way down to straight arm, extend my shoulders, hang for a moment, retract my shoulders, and begin my pull up. I am curious to see what Coach says about this.Attempting to limit the shoulders normal ROM (keeping the shoulders retracted) is only possible under artificially regulated conditions. It is instructive to note that such an intentionally limited ROM never occurs naturally during any athletic expression of the body; e.g. climbing, throwing, running, jumping etc. If it occurs, it will always be a contrived effort that goes against the body's natural tendencies.There is nothing dangerous in regards to a healthy joint articulating through its normal ROM. Impingement issues generally arise when people, who have artificially restricted their ROM through either inactivity or poor training habits, suddenly force their shoulders to extend their ROM under either an increased load, with increased velocity or both (e.g. kipping pullups) without first allowing the shoulders to be properly rehabbed.Yours in Fitness,Coach Sommer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Naterman Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 Thank you Coach! I feel pretty much the same way, but it is good to hear it straight from you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Duelley Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 I tell people at the gym almost every day to go all the way to a dead hang, most keep their elbows bent at the bottom which is a big cheat! There pull up numbers magically drop significantly :twisted: , one guy said he could do 15 but when I had him go all the way down he could only do like 5-6! 8) All hail full ROM! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jl5555 Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 What about the speed of the pull up? I see people pumping out pull ups at rocket speed which seems to preclude full ROM as they just bounce off the bottom not getting full extension. Is there some other aspect that going fast will get you so perhaps in those instances you're not shooting for full ROM? I am practicing fairly slow, full extension pull ups so I'm somewhat curious if going faster sometimes will add to the results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Sommer Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 For the purposes of building basic strength the bottom transition of the pullup should be performed in a slow deliberate manner. For the purposes of building dynamic strength the bottom transition of the pullup should be performed in a ballistic "bouncing" manner. The shoulder issues arise when people who possess neither the required ROM nor an adequate foundation of basic strength attempt to perform pullups in a ballistic manner.Yours in Fitness,Coach Sommer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liosis Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 Thanks Coach. Good to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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