Thrive Nutritional Pyramid

[Jason Dupree]

I didn't bother reading the articles either. Something that is bugging me though is, when you compare a diet high in whole grains to a diet low in whole grains, the low whole grain diet is usually comprised of a large amount of refined grains, fried food, etc. So relatively, whole grains is better. This is the fundamental flaw of research: you can't control for everything, only one thing. You have to read and do research with that in mind. 

[Jeff Serven]

Giaula Enders is anti gluten. You clearly have not read the book. Nice job. 

[Fabio Pinna]

On 11/3/2016 at 4:24 AM, Rayne-William Fitzgerald said:

Just for the sake of information for anyone who maybe wondering: The cellular wall of a tissue cell is made up of one type of protein. The cellular wall a of plant cell is made up of three types of protein.

Hello Rayne, and thank you for sharing some of your meals. Quite a few nice ideas there.

That said, I have a few doubts about this statement that I quoted above from your post.

1) What do you mean by "tissue cell"? Because "tissues" are present in every multicellular organism, including plants, animal, and fungi. "Tissue" is simply the name for any structure made of similar cells. Tree bark is a tissue.

2) maybe you mean cell membrane instead of cell wall? The cellular wall is only present in plant cellules - it's what makes plant tissues rigid instead of soft like animal tissues - while every cell in every living organism has a cell membrane, animal plant bacteria or fungi. And the cell wall has very little protein in it, maybe 5%, and of just 3 or 4 types.

3) Cell membrane, regardless if it is plant or animal, is pretty much completely made from lipids. And then there's a good amount of proteins, yes. Which proteins? All of them. Hundred of different types of proteins. Enzymes are a protein. Hormone receptors are a protein. Hormones themselves are proteins. Antigens are a protein. Proton pumps, ion channels, all of this is present and embedded in the cell membrane and made of proteins. And it's on average 50% of the membrane volume (not weight or number of cells, just volume). And different cells will have very different proteins embedded in their membrane. And all of this applies to both plant cellules and animal cellules (and fungi and bacteria...)

So you can see how I am confused by your statement - surely you meant something different?

Fun, unrelated fact #1: what lipids actually make up the membrane of your cells, is heavily influenced by your nutrition. The body prefers using what's already there instead of making new lipids. So if you regularly ate deep fried burgers for most of your life, your are quite literally made out of them. Studies demonstrates that, if available, the human body strongly prefers omega-3 fatty acids for the cell membrane - provided you are eating enough of them.

Fun fact #2: blood is categorized as connective tissue. When somebody tells me that I need bone broth for my connective tissue health, I tell them that I'm okay, I drink blood from my enemies regularly.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Fabio Pinna

[Jacob Morsbøl]

Saying I have not read the book is wrong. I might have misunderstood it. However, I have my doubt in this particular case. I have read it in danish, thus citing from my own copy would not help at all. Fortunately, I found an e-book version at the local library I could borrow. This version is published on Greystone Books and translated to english. Notice, I'm citing from an e-book version thus page numbering might differ from the printed version.

One of the first time ''gluten'' is mentioned is on page 2. Giulia Enders write about her childhood and that she at some time in her childhood ''cut out gluten almost entirely'' and ''generally improved my diet''. In the next sections I do not remember much about gluten and in particular I do not remember anything on celiac disease, gluten sensitivity, and so on.

Then on page 59 in the subsection ''Celiac Disease and Gluten Sensitivity'' Giulia Enders discusses the topic of gluten as an allergene. In this subsection Giulia Enders first give a short explanation of how gluten works as an allergene. Then she talks about celiac disease and gluten sensitivity. I'll cite from page 60: ''One person in a hundred has a genetic intolerance to gluten (celiac disease), but a considerably higher proportion suffer from gluten sensitivity.'', and Giulia Enders writes further ''In patients with celiac disease, eating wheat can cause serious infections or damage to the villi of the gut wall''. Some lines later Giulia Enders continues: ''Gluten sensitivity, by contrast, is not a sentence to a life of gluten avoidance. Those with this condition can eat wheat without risking serious damage to their small intestine, but they should enjoy wheat products in moderation'' and ''Many people notice their sensitivity when they swear off gluten for a week or two''. Giulia Enders then continues with the comment ''Researchers began exploring gluten sensitivity in detail only recently. Currently, the diagnostic picture can be summarized as follows. Symptoms improve when a gluten-free diet is introduced, although tests for celieac disease show negativ. The villi are not inflamed or damaged, but eating too much bread still appears to have an unpleasant effect on the immune system.''. A couple of pages later (on page 67) Giulia Enders writes something pretty interesting. She writes: ''Most have enough enzymes to process a small portion of creamy sauce, the occasional pretzel, or a fruit pudding'' and further on same page ''there is no need to impose a lifelong ban on certain products, but simply to make sure you consume them in quantities your system can easily cope with.''.

Now, she might be ''anti-gluten''. If so, however, she is indeed professional about it.

 

On 12/3/2016 at 5:26 PM, Jason Dupree said:

when you compare a diet high in whole grains to a diet low in whole grains, the low whole grain diet is usually comprised of a large amount of refined grains, fried food, etc. So relatively, whole grains is better. This is the fundamental flaw of research: you can't control for everything, only one thing. You have to read and do research with that in mind.

Jason Durpee, I think your first observation is really sharp. It is problematic that to compare diets that differs in more than one aspect. The latter comment, that you can only control for one thing, is wrong. You can control for many things. If I for instance want to guess the temperature by looking out a window I might produce a better guess by remembering in what part of the world I am and what time of the year it is. By doing this I control for both seasonal and geographical variation. The scientists do something very similar. And with modern computers they can in fact control for quite a lot. Consider, for instance, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17556700. Here they try to take care of other dietary factors by making the participants answering a questionnaire consisting of 127 question about food-frequencies. Questionnaires that is often used in many branches of sciences. Of course, you can question whether a questionnaire is good for measuring your everyday diet. But I think that based on the size of this (and some of the other population studies I link above) and the vast amount of publications supporting that whole grain consumption is associated with some positive health aspects serve as an evidence that the uncertainty from this kind of studies is negligible. If you want discussions of this the article above cite some.

When that is said, I think the same critical reading should apply for all populations studies. In fact, I think you should have that critical mind when it comes to all studies.

If you, for instance, consider the article on gliadin Jeff Serven refers to above. This article is partially done with intestinal cells ex vivo. That is, the intestinal cells have been taken out of the body. This arise immediate the question, how this affect the result. Furthermore, in the article they say that the concentration of zonulin, which is the part that seems to be responsible for the increased gut permeability for celiac disease (CD) patients, is higher for patients with CD than those without. Thus, another question is whether the concentration of zonulin have to be above some threshold before gluten consumption cause damage. Based on, for instance, this http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3705319/ I think it is too early to answer those questions.

[Jason Dupree]

27 minutes ago, Jacob Morsbøl said:

The latter comment, that you can only control for one thing, is wrong.

You are right. I had just woken up and was a bit hasty in my response. The point I was trying to get across though is that you can only control so much. A lot of times because of this, research brings up more questions than answers. Like, "was it compared to a diet high in refined carbs?". I don't like to jump to conclusions without considering those questions.

It may be a while before everybody agrees on what is right for everybody (if ever), but I can agree on what's right for me. I have noticed a positive effect by cutting out gluten. I don't have celiac disease. Because I don't have celiac disease I used to believe that if you didn't have it, you were an idiot for doing a gluten free diet. It's just a fad. Then I cut it out, and I know my diet was NOT high in refined grains. I always tried to get the wholest of the whole grains. I felt better. Every time I had gluten food I felt worse. So I avoid it now. Sure, I could eat a piece of bread and be fine, but even if I can't feel symptoms there is likely still some effect from it.

[Jacob Morsbøl]

3 minutes ago, Jason Dupree said:

It may be a while before everybody agrees on what is right for everybody (if ever), but I can agree on what's right for me. I have noticed a positive effect by cutting out gluten. I don't have celiac disease. Because I don't have celiac disease I used to believe that if you didn't have it, you were an idiot for doing a gluten free diet.

I totally respect, that some cut out gluten! I have tried it myself and I eat much less grains now than I used to. I don't think anyone is an idiot based on just avoiding some food! In fact, I cannot mention anyone I think of as being an idiot, without needing to think for quite a while. If I have given the impression otherwise, I am of course sorry.

[Jason Dupree]

Haha no didn't mean to imply that. I was just acknowledging that I am in fact an idiot at times. 

[William Marler]

13 minutes ago, Jason Dupree said:

If I use a method that doesn't track calories, but is very consistent, and easily adjustable, then I've accomplished the idea of your second quote.

Interesting ... what do you track?

13 minutes ago, Jason Dupree said:

I think energy consumption is important, just not bottom of the pyramid important.

Ok. What's the foundation of your pyramid?

[Zach Armijo]

21 hours ago, William Marler said:

There's so much @%#$#% here I'm a little amazed that Coach Sommer partnered with you.

Have you met Coach in person?

Not to say that Coach can't be demanding, but you will most certainly get a response you do not want to hear when your best effort is not put forth or worse, not follow a protocol that has been set before you, and expect different results.

Kicks in the ass are bountiful, Thrive is no exception. You may not like the results you are being compared to in Thrive, but it is no different than the results you are being compared to in GB programming. We are not looking to deploy along side SEALs or make it to Rio this year, but when people of Jeff's and Coach's expertise voice their experience...I listen whole heartedly and get to work.

[Jason Dupree]

Wait, you thing i'm contesting your program? Or did the threads get tangled? Your program is great. Best thing ever. I just wanted to have a conversation instead of saying, "go buy Thrive!" like a lemming. 

If any of my information is wrong let me know, because I paid tuition for it. (Yes, i'm sure you have a rant about book smarts vs real world smarts. I do). When I got out of college, I thought I knew everything. Then i learned i didnt, learned new stuff, and moved on. The intense focus on calories is one big thing i've changed my mind on. i'm sure that process of learning will continue. Meaning yes, i'd be more receptive to correction than you think. Yes, sometimes I talk like an expert when I'm a white belt, it's a character flaw that forums bring out. Working on it. 

1 hour ago, Jeff Serven said:

1 pound a week? Literally all that work and all you have is 1 pound a week with 2 of the weeks being a 0? Ive consistently produced 5 pounds in the first week and 2.5 pounds a week thereafter time and time again with my Extreme Fat Loss program. Whats there to discuss in 10 weeks?

That was my before/after challenge for him. Instead of berating him for at least making some progress, I asked him to prove that it in fact was progress, and that it was sustainable. Sure, your way is better and faster. No dispute there.

1 hour ago, Jeff Serven said:

Its clear to me that you are more interested in standing still looking good for a picture.

Sorry Jeff, for me at least this is dead wrong. 

 

2 hours ago, Jeff Serven said:

But hey lets stop the bull shit. Put your money where your mouth is. Produce those alleged before and after pictures.

Here was me before (I was not camera friendly back then, but you can see i'm pretty skinny):

And After (more muscle, leaner):

You can see my current pics in Thrive. I've looked like my after pic for a while, and i'm happy with it. I'm not trying to bulk up to look good, i'm trying to increase GST performance. Which I am.

Here's one of one of my clients' progress (she was too shy for pics. I really wish I had pushed it more):

I had another lose 14lbs in our first month. I had a kid who started off 168 with no muscle and flabs of skin (he use to be obese), to 180 lean. I can go dig that up if you want. 

We are in completely different arenas. You are in the Pro Athlete arena, and I'm in the Middle Age Mom arena. No, I'm not going to turn someone into a monster just yet. I can and have make people healthier. However, I never sacrifice performance and health for looks.

[Coach Sommer]

Is Jeff a straight shooter?  Absolutely.

Is Jeff sometimes a little rough around the edges?  Agreed.  And it is something that he continues to work on.  

Does that make his remarks and knowledge any less pertinent?  Not in the slightest.

Bottomline:  For some reason when discussing nutrition many people tend to feel that their opinion is every bit as good as everyone else's when nothing could be further from the truth.  This is the 'beginner's fallacy' at its' most extreme.  I suspect because most personal nutrition is based on personal preference and not actual results.

When experts speak who have spent many years achieving real world results at the highest levels, everyone else would benefit from quieting down and paying attention.  Real attention.  Not simply waiting for a pause in the discussion and then continuing on as though the other person had not spoken.

Remember in Jeff's world you are either successful or you are dead.  There is no in between.  Hence you will find that Jeff has an extremely low tolerance for bullsh%t.  And is not shy in the slightest about calling people out about it.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[William Marler]

21 hours ago, Zach Armijo said:

Have you met Coach in person?

Not to say that Coach is a ..., but you will most certainly get a response you do not want to hear when your best effort is not put forth or worse, not follow a protocol that has been set before you, and expect different results.

I have seen many, many posts of Coach Sommer (and specifically look for them in the forums to see what he's commenting on and how). I have seen him give responses people don't want to hear (and that I didn't want to hear). That's ok. What I have never seen him do is disparage or demean. Over the years that I've been following Coach Sommer's articles, posts, podcasts, books, he has earned my respect. Jeff, for all his success, does not garner it. And that's ok ... who am I to him? I'm obviously not someone he respects. I'm just someone who's not going to pay to get his material (and I paid to get Coach Sommers). <shrug>.

[William Marler]

8 minutes ago, Coach Sommer said:

And it is something that he continues to work on.

Lol, I'll believe that when i see it.

8 minutes ago, Coach Sommer said:

Does that make his remarks and knowledge any less pertinent?  Not in the slightest

In his last post he wrote "Your information is so wrong I don't even know where to begin. Nor would it do anything as you both are under the assumption that you are highly advanced when you are barley white belts." How about he tries to say what is so wrong, and try me (and Jason) on our ability to listen to his sage advice? Unfortunately, what I get from Jason Jeff isn't advise or knowledge, it's "I'm so awesome, look at how awesome I am. You're sh%t, because you're not as awesome as me or the elite people I train."

Edited March 22, 2016 by William Marler
Typo

[Zach Armijo]

8 minutes ago, Coach Sommer said:

I suspect because most personal nutrition is based on personal preference and not actual results.

When experts speak who have spent many years achieving real world results at the highest levels, everyone else would benefit from quieting down and paying attention.  Real attention.  Not simply waiting for a pause in the discussion and then continuing on as though the other person had not spoken.

Nothing could be more true than this.

[Karen Zanon]

40 minutes ago, Coach Sommer said:

When experts speak who have spent many years achieving real world results at the highest levels, everyone else would benefit from quieting down and paying attention.  Real attention.  

I believe there is a difference between being an expert and being a good coach.  Good coaches know their audience and understand the value of being client-centered so that their audience wants to really listen and take notice. 

[Jeff Serven]

John Berardi is definitely a successful coach. His "client-centered" approach is great. Ive read most all of what he has wrote and appreciate your admiration of his program.

 

[Jeff Serven]

Jason, nice post. Your before and after picture is great progress. Look at the lateral triceps in both pictures. Nice job. 

I was about as skinny as Jason as a kid. I did everything to get some muscles, I was so lost it wasn't funny. I obsessed about it for years and years with absolutely no results because I was listening to all the wrong people. People who shouldn't be giving advice so when I hear it now I shut it down. To save a younger me from wasting years of his life.  

[Rahul Kher]

Hi Jeff ,

After reading your blog posts & forum posts , I replaced wheat foods with rice and potatoes. I have eliminated wheat completely. And I eat mostly eggs , potatoes , rice & greens now. These are the things I observed -

1. I dont shake as much during training ( muscle contractions are stable).

2. My mind remains more alert & present during training.

3. I was able to push much harder in effort during training.

4. Muscles were not so sore after the workout day.

5. I feel lighter, less bloating , less lethargy , etc .

I can't believe just how much wheat was putting brakes on my body while I was trying to accelerate(gst).

But , I couldn't follow your advice of not eating carbs at day , & I get a little sleepy after eating 3 eggs , rice & potatoes at breakfast. Is eating 6 eggs & some greens for breakfast a better idea ?

 

[Jeff Serven]

My man! This is my kinda' guy. This is my ideal client and the only type of people I work with. Winners.

How do you know if your a winner? You read the blog post like Rahul did - didn't succumb to the complaining about Jeff bandwagon. You took the information in, you APPLIED the information and now you have questions how to get better. 

Rahul - Great work, tip of the hat sir!  Im glad to hear the information you applied was helpful. As for your next step its Thrive Step 1. You will find the details in your inbox as I have bought your course for you. All I ask is that upon completion you leave a no punches pulled review here in the public forum.

I do what I do because I love working with no BS, no excuses, killers like Rahul, Julia, Zach and so many more in here. It truly makes my day when a guy like Colm post his incredible before and after pictures. 

[Colm O'Shea]

Hey Rahul,

Congrats on getting the course bought for you by Jeff! In my experience, if you reach out to him, and ask for help, he's a goldmine. There's a real generosity of spirit to the man. Merely my opinion.

 

[William Marler]

On the subject of results, here are 3 progress pictures. I didn't take a proper "start" picture like I should have, so I grabbed a screenshot from one of my mastery check videos from November, 2015. The one taken from Feb 28 is after 8 weeks of tracking, and I was flexed. The one taken today was after a workout, so I've got a bit of a pump, but I'm not flexed: https://goo.gl/photos/WN7amUywQJZYL8F17. 

Jeff, I think you're not interested in explaining how I have it all wrong, but I'm interested in what you have to say if you are. 

Reading through about 100 of your more recent forum contributions to forum posts & re-reading your blog post this is what I've gleaned of your views:

• Eat a variety of protein to get enough of the 9 essential amino acids (histidine, isoleucine, leucine, lysine, methionine, phenylalanine, threonine, tryptophan, and valine) and DHA (so I'm inferring you're talking about oceanic fish, or specific quality fish oil supplements)
• Eat a variety of vegetables, both cooked and raw
• Do not eat wheat or other grains with gluten (rice is ok; I'm not sure if you consider corn to be OK or not).

You do not talk about quantity, at least not on the public forms that I could find, or about macro ratios. Earlier you responded to me saying {I'm paraphrasing} "calories matter, but not to the degree that you [meaning me] think." What do you think about macro ratios? It seems to me that the way to cut while maintaining maximum muscle mass is to maintain a high protein intake (more than 1g protein/lb lean body mass), and "decent" macro ratios (this is what I attribute my recent success to, v. simply calorie counting). What are your thoughts on this? I'm guessing here, but maybe you find that someone eating according to your instruction simply gets enough of "the right amount" of what s/he needs? (which actually works on the same principal as specifically aiming for macro/calorie targets, it just masks the actual numbers). Do you not care as much about calories because you're accustomed to professional athletes with 6,000Kcal/day burn rates, who, when eating according to your guidelines, can simply eat to fullness every meal and not run too much of an excess?

Can you explain what methods you use to classify a food as a "net positive" v. "net negative?" In your blog post you write "grains, sugars, and processed foods take away." Fruits and many vegetables (such as carrots, which you specifically mentioned cooking & eating to one poster who complained about vegetables) have sugars in them, but you advocate for vegetables, so that makes me confused (it seems like you can't advocate for both positions). Do you do something like consider fruits and vegetables to be net positives "conditionally" (like when when timed correctly), or are you less strict about calling their sugars "net negatives" because of the vitamins and fiber that come with them, or maybe because there isn't much sugar, or when you refer to "sugar" you're referring specifically to refined sugars (like table sugar, syrups, HFCS, etc)? How do you feel about milk (the lactose being a sugar) -- do you consider milk to be a net positive or a net negative?

Thanks,

[Douglas Wadle]

Dude, give it a rest. Its time to end this little battle. It's going nowhere. 

[Rahul Kher]

8 hours ago, Jeff Serven said:

 

Rahul - Great work, tip of the hat sir!  Im glad to hear the information you applied was helpful. As for your next step its Thrive Step 1. You will find the details in your inbox as I have bought your course for you. All I ask is that upon completion you leave a no punches pulled review here in the public forum.

 

Roger that , sir.

[William Marler]

14 minutes ago, Douglas Wadle said:

Dude, give it a rest. Its time to end this little battle. It's going nowhere. 

I'm sorry if I sound combative, I'm not trying to pick a fight. 

[Travis Widmann]

Welcome to Thrive, Rahul.

I don't need to get too involved here, but I will echo Colm and say this: as unpolished as Jeff can be, he really gives you his personal attention in the Thrive forums. If you ask him about a food he's never encountered before he'll take some time, do some research, and give you an answer. That's like having a personal nutritionist. Might tell you to shoot yourself in the face, but he's involved.