Milk

[Razz]

Now we are talking the same language

[Jason Stein]

http://www.startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showthread.php?t=15386

As far as the effects of GOMAD, this dude gained 78# [35kg] in 6 months, 46# [21kg] of which is LBM.

He was also on a powerlifting strength-based program which involved frequent squatting, which is a powerful growth hormone stimulus.

The only growth hormone stimulus comparable to back squats would be ring work.

Interestingly, I have a Eastern European gymnastic book on loan from a friend, and it has tables listing gymnasts' and gymnast specialists' site-specific bodyfat skin-fold measurements.

All the ring men have bodyfat values and ratios on par with slightly greater growth hormone production than their fellow athletes.

[Razz]

Sounds like a very interesting book!

[Joshua Naterman]

Don't forget that fat is digested much slower than carbs or protein, so even if you eat more calories of fat, your body isn't getting flooded with more calories than it needs to use in a particular timeframe, say an hour. So if you eat 400 calories of carbs and your body only needs 130 in an hour but your digestive system ends up processing around 250 calories worth of that carb meal into blod sugar your body is going to need to do something with the rest of the sugar in the blood that it doesn't need to use! Guess where it goes... straight to the jelly-belly. Or butt.

As a whole, the laws of thermodynamics don't have anything to do with why the body doesn't gain as much weight off of high fat diets, within reason.

Also, what razz is looking for is that fat digestion takes around 2 calories for every 100 calories worth of fat, carbs is around 10 for every 100, and protein digestion requires around 20 calories of energy to digest 100 calories worth of protein.

[Edward Smith]

Isn't it interesting that the human metabolism seems to defy the first law of thermodynamics? Drs. Kekwick and Pawan demonstrated that patients on 2000-calorie diets maintained or even gained weight, while patients on a 2,600-calorie diet lost weight.

How do you lose weight consuming more calories? Maybe a calorie is not just a calorie.

best,

jason

Here is a good piece by Dr Eades on the subject of a calorie is a calorie, comparing two studies.

It continues to be proven, time and time again, that damn near everything is about quality, not quantity!

Ed

[Jason Stein]

[F]at digestion takes around 2 calories for every 100 calories worth of fat, carbs is around 10 for every 100, and protein digestion requires around 20 calories of energy to digest 100 calories worth of protein.

Yet all this is irrelevant unless, as Ed says, make-up of food is considered.

Interesting stuff.

best,

j

[Blairbob]

Slizzard,

IMO If people ate whole foods it probably wouldnt matter much what your marconutrient ratios were.

If you follow Robb Wolf or haven't (check out his website and blog and podcasts besides the fact he is the Nutrtional MOD at GB), his paleo approach is basically that/was that. It is what butted heads with the Zone followers at CF who would prefer to weigh and measure everything, especially for new clients. Robb's simple approach was to get people in dire need of nutritional help to convert to Paleo eating instead of worrying about how many blocks of carbs and fat and protein they needed to eat and what foods counted as what.

KISS in action. Of course, there is a benefit to calculating BMR and activity levels and weighing and measuring, to track muscular gains or fat/weight loss; but it is probably much easier to get people higher quality of foods versus getting Noobs to calculate everything.

That approach may not be very safe for those at risk for dietary disorders (which yes, are mental disorders but...) as well.

You can either get a fat person eating quality foods or getting them to stress (as Ido would say, creating cortisol over it) about how much they should have of this or that. As well, there is a noted problem that there are a gagillion different flavors of the Zone diet that will allow at times for foods of ill repute.

Can we really argue that eating grassfed, organic meats, some fruit, lots of veggies is bad for you? However, with some flavors of the Zone they will allow foods of poor quality just because.

[Jason Stein]

Blair,

During my time at the gym here in Portland, mostly people (especially women) absolutely flip out at the idea of the Zone, i.e. weighing and measuring their food. It's not really a recommended consideration anymore.

Many women have troubling relationships to food and body image, and so there's immediate and very strong push-back against the idea of getting more neurotic about it.

However giving them a list of suggestions of food they can eat works way better. I've experienced success with my clients/students by using Poliquin's approach --- asking them to change only their breakfasts to a more Paleo approach.

I also had success with students by asking them to eat traditional breakfasts, whether it's Japanese, Philipino, Eastern European, or Balinese --- that is, eating what their grandmothers made for breakfast. All entailed eliminating grains and legumes and bumping up protein.

The style of yoga in which I participate is pretty vigorous (almost gymnastic), alternating upper-body pressing and lifting with static holds.

The women especially have a hard time with the strength aspects because they tend to eat like dancers while they're practicing like gymnasts. My common question is, "Are you eating enough?"

Anyways, best,

jason

[shinobi1]

My friend wasn't lactose intolerant; it's just that milk past weaning isn't great for 85% of the world,.

It isnt good for 85% of the world because they are lactose intloerant, your friend could be ( and in all likely hood was) lactose intolerant and didnt know it.

... but its still meaningless, people are obese becuase they eat processed junk which keeps them hungry and in turn they over eat.

Being obese has little to no relation with the amount of fat you consume. Like I said before, fat has more calories per gram than carbs or protien, therefore 100 grams of carbs has 400 kcal which is less than 100 grams of fat which has 700 kcal. so obviously the latter will cause you to gain more weight.

Shinobi,

My friend does not and did not have any symptoms that would precipitate a medical diagnosis of lactose intolerance.

Those are also interesting hypotheses you have which are, unfortunately, refutable.

Isn't it interesting that the human metabolism seems to defy the first law of thermodynamics? Drs. Kekwick and Pawan demonstrated that patients on 2000-calorie diets maintained or even gained weight, while patients on a 2,600-calorie diet lost weight.

How do you lose weight consuming more calories? Maybe a calorie is not just a calorie.

best,

jason

Your being way to general now. Did they take into account individual variation in the people and the food?

Even if your taking about carbs, obviously it take more energy to burn 50 grams of celery than 50 grams of bread.

Like I said your claim is way too broad to accept or deni, however I will check out those 2 doctors.

[Blairbob]

Yep, Jason which is why Robb's approach is so good and makes sense. There is no point to making people neurotic about things. People are nuts enough. I'm not in opposition of your or Robb's method, especially with beginners. Heck, I don't W&M because I like enjoying life as does another friend of my who is pseudo CF/SS leaning to SS or was. Eyeball method is good enough. I played around with rough calculation of zone blocks and such so I could have a broad idea of what I was eating per meal and target was per day. I don't do it anymore but I did play around with it.

The women especially have a hard time with the strength aspects because they tend to eat like dancers while they're practicing like gymnasts. My common question is, "Are you eating enough?"

Seeing that I'm in gymnastics, I really hate this. It's so bad, that I even have boys like this. They aren't worried about eating too much or getting fat but they eat like birds. However, I have heard they eat more than they used to, and on some days they will be ravenous. This generally depends it seems on how hard they work.

OTOH, I can tell now and before which of the girls are eating crap at home and poorly and sometimes there is a correlation with which ones are strong and not. It always baffled me before but not after mentoring under one coach as I learned more about nutrition, the 1st steps while coaching under him.

In fact, it may be one of the reasons Erik seems to be pretty strong. More than likely all his life, he's eaten game meat (most of the meat they eat is game meat) predominantly besides chicken and eggs and milk and seeing how he follows his dad, that means he likes his meat. He likes his milk as well and he has something akin to a 12-pack so it doesn't seem to be hurting him, and yes, he is Scandinavian.

[Jason Stein]

Shinobi,

I should have been more specific, you're right.

I was referencing locked metabolic ward studies in which the doctors fed patients 2,000 calories of a high CHO diet, and noted weight gain or maintenance, versus patients fed 2,600 high FAT diet who lost weight.

It seems to defy logic.

Blair,

The examples I can think of are endless, but just one would be that dinner for a female acquaintance of mine would be a bowl of popcorn, and that's it. And then she wondered why she wasn't gaining strength or was struggling with a 6x/week, 2.5 hours/day practice.

The 'female triad' seems to apply to more than gymnastics.

best,

jason

[Blairbob]

Jason, I often wondered why our girls at one gym did not seem to be getting stronger over a long term period despite our conditioning programming and the time they spent in practice and it wasn't from a lack of effort.

[dlsso]

You guys sound like you're not worried about the extremely high calcium intake involved in GOMAD. There are heart health issues that people are concerned about too, not just kidney stones. Do you have published research suggesting that those are non-issues as well?

[shinobi1]

You guys sound like you're not worried about the extremely high calcium intake involved in GOMAD. There are heart health issues that people are concerned about too, not just kidney stones. Do you have published research suggesting that those are non-issues as well?

Only one person I know had an issue with that... and I think it was only because he stopped working out for like a week but continued to drink a gallon a day.

If you a small guy you dont need to drink the whole gallon and for bigger guys they simply need more calcium so I dont think that there is that much of a problem.

The guy mentioned above was also a relatively small person.

A gallon of milk has 3.8 times the amount of calcium for a 2000 kcal diet, most people trying to gain weight are probably double that. So, its only 1.9 times the amount of calcium and that doesnt take into account the increased need, which I suspect would drop that number a good amount. So as long as your within those parameters then I dont think there is that much of a problem. Also I dont know but your body may not even absorb all of the calcium you drink.

These are just some factors to concider... of course if you are thinking of drinking a gallon of milk a day then you should be cautious when doing so (just like anything else).

[Joshua Naterman]

33% of the calcium in milk is absorbed, versus 52%(I might be a point off) of the calcium in broccoli. The difference is due to the presence of protein.

As an aside, grass-fed, non-homogenized milk is absolutely delicious. I just had some for the first time two days ago. I was reeeeeeeeally good, so the half-gallon lasted 48 hours.

[braindx]

You guys sound like you're not worried about the extremely high calcium intake involved in GOMAD. There are heart health issues that people are concerned about too, not just kidney stones. Do you have published research suggesting that those are non-issues as well?

They are non-issues if you're getting enough vitamin K, and inflammation reduction.

Vitamin K helps regulate calcium metabolism so it doesn't get deposited in the wrong places forming stones...

Also, high amounts of inflammation also cause problems with wrong place deposition such as calcific tendonitis or in the muscles such as after strains.

Eliminate inflammation with healthier diet + fish oil, and get enough vitamin K.

Extra calcium should not even be an issue.

[Matthew Mossop]

Even better would be a non homogenized, non-pasteurized, hormone free, grass fad cow milk. If you are going to drink this stuff, at least get the real deal, and not the highly processed product people in the west refer to as 'milk'.

Just wondering why you recommend non-pasteurized milk? I've seen a few people recently recommend it. I've started drinking full fat organic milk, but apparently it's illegal to sell non-pasteurized milk in Canada, so I can't get any. But anyway just wondering exactly why pasteurization is bad.

As an aside, grass-fed, non-homogenized milk is absolutely delicious. I just had some for the first time two days ago. I was reeeeeeeeally good, so the half-gallon lasted 48 hours.

How would I know if my milk is non-homogenized? Is full fat considered non-homogenized? Mine doesn't say.

[MH87]

milk is for babies...

Babys are fat!

Therefore, milk is bad.

lol.

seriously tho.. terrible way to add bulk to a diet by gorging on milk imo

[Matthew Mossop]

milk is for babies...

Babys are fat!

Therefore, milk is bad.

lol.

seriously tho.. terrible way to add bulk to a diet by gorging on milk imo

Not sure if you're talking to me or just generally, but I'm not gorging on my nor am I really trying to add bulk. I'll have maybe a glass every day or every second day.

[Larry Roseman]

Even better would be a non homogenized, non-pasteurized, hormone free, grass fad cow milk. If you are going to drink this stuff, at least get the real deal, and not the highly processed product people in the west refer to as 'milk'.

Just wondering why you recommend non-pasteurized milk? I've seen a few people recently recommend it. I've started drinking full fat organic milk, but apparently it's illegal to sell non-pasteurized milk in Canada, so I can't get any. But anyway just wondering exactly why pasteurization is bad.

As an aside, grass-fed, non-homogenized milk is absolutely delicious. I just had some for the first time two days ago. I was reeeeeeeeally good, so the half-gallon lasted 48 hours.

How would I know if my milk is non-homogenized? Is full fat considered non-homogenized? Mine doesn't say.

Yeah non-pasturized is illegal to sell in Ontario at least. There were groups of people who bought shares in dairy cows, so they could say it was their own cow's milk for their own consumption. That arrangement I belive was also outlawed. A lot of these people were gormet chefs who wanted to make special cheeses and dishes, sad to say.

The fear is a little e-coli in the milk multiplying if the milk isn't stored properly. That is a risk, but easily mitigated. Also risky are all the ground beef, burgers and sliced meat which is poorly inspected and recalled on regular basis. So the whole thing sounds like a diversion. Most people living on farms do heat up the cow's milk and pasturize it if it's not consumed immediately.

Non-homogenized has cream on the top. That is the old style milk the milk man used to deliver and put in the milk box on your front porch? Before your time probably! But this can still be had in some places and in certain health food stores. It is pasturized though.

[Joshua Naterman]

Even better would be a non homogenized, non-pasteurized, hormone free, grass fad cow milk. If you are going to drink this stuff, at least get the real deal, and not the highly processed product people in the west refer to as 'milk'.

Just wondering why you recommend non-pasteurized milk? I've seen a few people recently recommend it. I've started drinking full fat organic milk, but apparently it's illegal to sell non-pasteurized milk in Canada, so I can't get any. But anyway just wondering exactly why pasteurization is bad.

As an aside, grass-fed, non-homogenized milk is absolutely delicious. I just had some for the first time two days ago. I was reeeeeeeeally good, so the half-gallon lasted 48 hours.

How would I know if my milk is non-homogenized? Is full fat considered non-homogenized? Mine doesn't say.

Yeah non-pasturized is illegal to sell in Ontario at least. There were groups of people who bought shares in dairy cows, so they could say it was their own cow's milk for their own consumption. That arrangement I belive was also outlawed. A lot of these people were gormet chefs who wanted to make special cheeses and dishes, sad to say.

The fear is a little e-coli in the milk multiplying if the milk isn't stored properly. That is a risk, but easily mitigated. Also risky are all the ground beef, burgers and sliced meat which is poorly inspected and recalled on regular basis. So the whole thing sounds like a diversion. Most people living on farms do heat up the cow's milk and pasturize it if it's not consumed immediately.

Non-homogenized has cream on the top. That is the old style milk the milk man used to deliver and put in the milk box on your front porch? Before your time probably! But this can still be had in some places and in certain health food stores. It is pasturized though.

The fear is that the farms don't properly clean their equipment or cow udders. There just aren't anywhere near enough safety personnel or money to pay them for non-pasteurized milk to really be safe, you're talking about an awful lot of small farms that would have to be checked on a very, very regular basis whether that means testing the milk itself or having very frequent unscheduled and unwarned inspections of the facility.

If everything was kept clean it would be fine, but the danger outweighs the relatively small benefit of not denaturing the lactase enzyme.

I get the next best thing, which is grass fed non-homogenized milk that is pasteurized at 145 degrees. The least denatured milk on the legal market.

[Joshua Naterman]

milk is for babies...

Babys are fat!

Therefore, milk is bad.

lol.

seriously tho.. terrible way to add bulk to a diet by gorging on milk imo

It's actually a pretty reasonable thing to do, especially if you're drinking the milk constantly throughout the day.

You're getting healthy fatty acids, high quality protein and reasonable carbs. You're getting somewhere around 2500 calories, and if you build the rest of your diet around the milk so that you have plenty of veggies and perhaps some meat in there you should have excellent results.

You may be interested to know that several recent weight loss studies have found that the subjects with milk in their diet lost more weight than dairy-free diets. They believe the extra calcium is helping. I believe that, while that certainly plays a role, people are terrible at counting liquid calories. The milk in their diet puts them way over what they should be in terms of calories, and that is where the problem starts.

I also think that a lot of people are more insulin resistant than they realize, and without taking steps to correct that milk's ability to stimulate insulin release is probably not helping that segment of the population. Just a guess, that last bit.

[Razz]

The fear is that the farms don't properly clean their equipment or cow udders. There just aren't anywhere near enough safety personnel or money to pay them for non-pasteurized milk to really be safe, you're talking about an awful lot of small farms that would have to be checked on a very, very regular basis whether that means testing the milk itself or having very frequent unscheduled and unwarned inspections of the facility.

If everything was kept clean it would be fine, but the danger outweighs the relatively small benefit of not denaturing the lactase enzyme.

Raw milk may not need to be sterilized, because raw pastured milk by itself has a very high anti microbial activity. Lactoferrin and lactoperoxidase are primarily responsible for this, but there are other compounds in there helping out aswell. On the other hand pasteurized milk gets infected quite easily because the natural anti-microbials have been denatured.

[MH87]

Thanks for the info! I do drink a glass of milk every now and then myself, but I still coil in horror when I see a lot of people's results on stuff like GOMAD but then again that is probably due to bad diet + a ton of milk and "bulking"? but who knows.

[Joshua Naterman]

The fear is that the farms don't properly clean their equipment or cow udders. There just aren't anywhere near enough safety personnel or money to pay them for non-pasteurized milk to really be safe, you're talking about an awful lot of small farms that would have to be checked on a very, very regular basis whether that means testing the milk itself or having very frequent unscheduled and unwarned inspections of the facility.

If everything was kept clean it would be fine, but the danger outweighs the relatively small benefit of not denaturing the lactase enzyme.

Raw milk may not need to be sterilized, because raw pastured milk by itself has a very high anti microbial activity. Lactoferrin and lactoperoxidase are primarily responsible for this, but there are other compounds in there helping out aswell. On the other hand pasteurized milk gets infected quite easily because the natural anti-microbials have been denatured.

There have been several small outbreaks of e. coli in the US that center on raw milk, I don't know that I can say any more than that without breaking confidences. Having said that, the conditions in these cases are truly abysmal, but it is the few events like this that really mess things up for the whole industry.