Roberto Praz Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Well, i'm learning the back lever(on the rings) and i'm feeling much more stress in my right biceps than in my left biceps. But my right arm is bigger and stronger than my left one. Is this normal or i'm doing something wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Sommer Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 You are doing something wrong. Not only wrong, but potentially very wrong. Beginners should not engage in serious specific back lever training. The chance of injury is unacceptably high. Yours in Fitness,Coach Sommer 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toni Laukkavaara Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 ^ do not copy your workout from the typical calisthenics guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roberto Praz Posted June 9, 2015 Author Share Posted June 9, 2015 What could it be then?should i record me doing a back lever ?and i started training the back lever with this guy tutorial here: i think it's a good tutorial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cole Dano Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 No, Coach Sommer's point is you shouldn't be doing back lever at all without having done a lot of other developmental work first. We've seen too many blown biceps, elbows etc and it isn't worth the risk. You need to take the time to strengthen your tendons enough to handle back lever first. The developmental details are all laid out in Coach Sommer's Foundations programme. - https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/gb-courses/foundation-series/ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Taylor-Shaut Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 You're going to hurt yourself. I tried that. I stopped doing Foundation in December of 2014 and pursued BtGB progressions and back lever progressions on the rings. After only one month, I was pretty banged up. I have had intermittent sternum pain since then. That pain has also only completely gone away recently due to abiding by Foundation and its relative stretching programs. I only pursued that hodge-podge program for a matter of weeks before realizing that it was doing me more harm than good. Eat some humble pie and come back to Foundations. I'm saying this from a point of sympathy as I went there myself and realized the error of my ways. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Murray Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 +1 on backing off. I could do a reasonable back lever a few years ago, then had some unrelated injuries to the shoulders. When they were (both) reconstructed, both biceps tendons were damaged. I'd' gone too far, MUCH too fast. I won't describe the SLAP tear (major on right side, minor on left), complete labral avulsion (right side) and multidirectional instability (both sides), nor the three years it's taken me to get back to about 20% of where I used to be, let alone the surgery and rehab costs. May I just say that Foundation has been the best rehab I've done. May I also say: #$%#$% MN/PE2! I'll get you yet! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Jefferys Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 The stress a back lever places on the elbows differs greatly between supinated versus pronated grip. I've never had an issue with pronated grip, but supinated grip was fairly uncomfortable when pulling into it from a German hang. I've also witnessed some who can perform a pronated back lever without issue, but can't perform a supinated German hang without intense pain. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Egebak Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 The stress a back lever places on the elbows differs greatly between supinated versus pronated grip. I've never had an issue with pronated grip, but supinated grip was fairly uncomfortable when pulling into it from a German hang. I've also witnessed some who can perform a pronated back lever without issue, but can't perform a supinated German hang without intense pain.Yeah, some adults are capable of performing back lever work without any problems at all. If people have the opportunity they could always be assessed by a professional gymnastics coach to see whether or not they will fail that evaluation. Most people will, and I guess that is why back lever work is completely rejected here; rather see a few people lose very little progress on their rings training than to see more than a few people step many months back from injuries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Douglas Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 There's another dimension to the safety factor too-- It's not enough to be *able* to train something safely, to make it worth training, you also need to be strong enough to benefit from it. That means quality, volume, and not working at maximum. Back lever is not hard on the muscles, which quickly register if they are working hard. Connective tissue generally feels fine until it's rather suddenly not. We also don't train 'true' 1-rep maxes around here, so it needs to be at an acceptably low fraction of max strength. Alessandro also had some strong opinions on it inhibiting productive manna work that make a lot of sense. I had an easy back lever a couple years ago; I'm significantly stronger now, haven't trained it, don't miss it, will revisit it in due course and gain without needing to discuss it, because I will be confident in my prep 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romulo Malta Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Very interesting Jon. Was that (Alessandro´s opinions) in the forum? Could you please give us the link? Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessandro Mainente Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 First time I discussed about it was at Copenhagen seminar where I asked Coach if back lever could be a problem for manna development.He said me "i don't think it is a problem". basically because before approaching the back lever on rings one is highly recommended to ALREADY have manna or at least a high shoulders extension. for this reason back lever is not a problem for a skill that you ALREADY have. On the contrary, there is an evidence. I worked about with 2-3 hundreds of adults in the last 2 years. who has a previous self-made programming on bodyweigth has NO shoulders extension. on the contrary I had some personal training session with some guys who have a strange good extension and flexion. I had no doubts about asking them how they worked "i'm following foundations courses of Coach Sommer" ... my answer was clear " aahahhaha bad boy"!!! all becomes easier!! impressively easier with them. For person with very good extension there are no problems. for the other back lever could only aggravate pre existing situations for different reasons:-it is achieved by activation of the major internal rotatorr like pec major, little pec and subscapularis that together avoid upper body drop and scapulas collapsing. all there muscles tend to reduce shoulders extension by rolling the shoulders inward.-all the internal rotators give an immensive forward movement of humerus head, if you have not already developed strong rotator cuff with HBP progression you risk a luxation -body is a set of nodes. if on one node is impossible to reach a bigger rom you will compensate on other. in that way different connective tissue along the back lever activation are actively stressed depending upon you deficits. people usually do not consider this last factor but it has a different level of application. my friend Physio Rosario pointed out something interesting about handstand position. it regards 3 major joints-shoulders-elbows-wriststarting from the upper region eventual problems or deficit are scaled down the other joints that compensate the problems in the upper.shoulders limitation moves down to elbows that usually are bend in frozen shoulders situation. if they are locked you will start to increase dramatically the stress of the wrists and....say goodbye to your wrists. This is all about to say that behind some skills there is much more than you think. progression are made up to address people over the correct way, eliminating the problems from the beginning. 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romulo Malta Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 Thank you Alessandro! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Egebak Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 First time I discussed about it was at Copenhagen seminar where I asked Coach if back lever could be a problem for manna development.He said me "i don't think it is a problem". basically because before approaching the back lever on rings one is highly recommended to ALREADY have manna or at least a high shoulders extension. for this reason back lever is not a problem for a skill that you ALREADY have. On the contrary, there is an evidence. I worked about with 2-3 hundreds of adults in the last 2 years. who has a previous self-made programming on bodyweigth has NO shoulders extension. on the contrary I had some personal training session with some guys who have a strange good extension and flexion. I had no doubts about asking them how they worked "i'm following foundations courses of Coach Sommer" ... my answer was clear " aahahhaha bad boy"!!! all becomes easier!! impressively easier with them. For person with very good extension there are no problems. for the other back lever could only aggravate pre existing situations for different reasons:-it is achieved by activation of the major internal rotatorr like pec major, little pec and subscapularis that together avoid upper body drop and scapulas collapsing. all there muscles tend to reduce shoulders extension by rolling the shoulders inward.-all the internal rotators give an immensive forward movement of humerus head, if you have not already developed strong rotator cuff with HBP progression you risk a luxation -body is a set of nodes. if on one node is impossible to reach a bigger rom you will compensate on other. in that way different connective tissue along the back lever activation are actively stressed depending upon you deficits. people usually do not consider this last factor but it has a different level of application. my friend Physio Rosario pointed out something interesting about handstand position. it regards 3 major joints-shoulders-elbows-wriststarting from the upper region eventual problems or deficit are scaled down the other joints that compensate the problems in the upper.shoulders limitation moves down to elbows that usually are bend in frozen shoulders situation. if they are locked you will start to increase dramatically the stress of the wrists and....say goodbye to your wrists. This is all about to say that behind some skills there is much more than you think. progression are made up to address people over the correct way, eliminating the problems from the beginning.Post of the month! Basically, that should be applied to every topic mentioning a back lever! Thank you for taking your time to write that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Douglas Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 Thanks Ale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Sommer Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 First time I discussed about it was at Copenhagen seminar where I asked Coach if back lever could be a problem for manna development.He said me "i don't think it is a problem". basically because before approaching the back lever on rings one is highly recommended to ALREADY have manna or at least a high shoulders extension. for this reason back lever is not a problem for a skill that you ALREADY have. On the contrary, there is an evidence. I worked about with 2-3 hundreds of adults in the last 2 years. who has a previous self-made programming on bodyweigth has NO shoulders extension. on the contrary I had some personal training session with some guys who have a strange good extension and flexion. I had no doubts about asking them how they worked "i'm following foundations courses of Coach Sommer" ... my answer was clear " aahahhaha bad boy"!!! all becomes easier!! impressively easier with them. For person with very good extension there are no problems. for the other back lever could only aggravate pre existing situations for different reasons:-it is achieved by activation of the major internal rotatorr like pec major, little pec and subscapularis that together avoid upper body drop and scapulas collapsing. all there muscles tend to reduce shoulders extension by rolling the shoulders inward.-all the internal rotators give an immensive forward movement of humerus head, if you have not already developed strong rotator cuff with HBP progression you risk a luxation -body is a set of nodes. if on one node is impossible to reach a bigger rom you will compensate on other. in that way different connective tissue along the back lever activation are actively stressed depending upon you deficits. people usually do not consider this last factor but it has a different level of application. my friend Physio Rosario pointed out something interesting about handstand position. it regards 3 major joints-shoulders-elbows-wriststarting from the upper region eventual problems or deficit are scaled down the other joints that compensate the problems in the upper.shoulders limitation moves down to elbows that usually are bend in frozen shoulders situation. if they are locked you will start to increase dramatically the stress of the wrists and....say goodbye to your wrists. This is all about to say that behind some skills there is much more than you think. progression are made up to address people over the correct way, eliminating the problems from the beginning.Well said, Alex.Bottom line:If you follow the correct progressions, then implementing back level training at the correct time will cause no issues.If you insist on doing things incorrectly and out of order, then you get what you get.Yours in Fitness,Coach Sommer 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Hansen Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 Yeah, some adults are capable of performing back lever work without any problems at all. If people have the opportunity they could always be assessed by a professional gymnastics coach to see whether or not they will fail that evaluation. Most people will, and I guess that is why back lever work is completely rejected here; rather see a few people lose very little progress on their rings training than to see more than a few people step many months back from injuries.What would be involved in an assessment of that sort? Does the same advice about back lever training also apply to German hangs? I play around with those sometimes and it seems ok but now I'm afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Egebak Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 What would be involved in an assessment of that sort? Does the same advice about back lever training also apply to German hangs? I play around with those sometimes and it seems ok but now I'm afraid.I would not dare to say. One thing is that I might not know all relevant prerequisites, another thing is that opening about BL, on the internet, might inspire some people to still pursue BL although they are not ready for it. And injuries would be on my part. All I am saying is... find an experienced coach who is used to deal with adults gymnastics in a proper fashion and ask him that question. GH should also be approached cautiously; it is a very intense stretch. Either do them very lightly assisted (feet on ground or band-assisted) or skip them for now. There are plenty of other should extension stretches which are more beneficial. GH is rings-specific because you are pulling yourself up, the other stretches you are primarily pressing yourself or some weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mouclier Victor Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 (edited) it seems like most part of the deep injuries from bodyweight training come from back lever stuff. i mean johnny sapinoso torn his pec on a OABL, adam raw ruptured his bicep on supinated BL and much more...I would propably be one of those guys today if i never camed across the fantastic Gymnasticbodies community ! Edited July 11, 2015 by Bosco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Jefferys Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 What people have to realize that just because you can do something without preparation or not being prepared enough, doesn't mean you are in the safe zone. It will always be a matter of WHEN the injury will occur, not IF it will occur.I don't think there's anything wrong with testing the waters; it's just something you should do very infrequently and gradually get into it. Jumping into a back lever is a bad idea, but exceptionally slowly extending from a German Hang until it feels very slightly uncomfortable is fine if you do it once in a blue moon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessandro Mainente Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 I don't think, I've seen personally 4 people breaking biceps tendon while doing their first BL attempt. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Hutchins Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 It's funny that the OP hasn't even been back to check on this. Gymnastic training exposes your bodies to trememdous stress and rigors even with proper conditioning and prep. Should you take a risk and dive into training if you are a casual guy seems to be the main issue. I preach to my kids to see progress in terms of years. I ask them to imagine themselves on the podium in the number 1 spot and then think about what they had to do to get there. The casual guy "ain't got time for that". Instead opting to go with the get it done attitude. We have seen lots of street people whip out higher level "skills" and be just fine. No matter what you do you need to warmup, active stretch, and put in hard work. No one wants to blow out an elbow but that is the slippery slope you put your body on when doing lever/disadvantaged training. This street mentality will naturally evolve as more people get hurt. All we can do here is try to get the few to listen. Unfortunately this post is doomed to be repeated as long as the human body can do amazing things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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