Is there a point in strength training you can progress beyond?

[lisiflex]

Yesterday at gym there was a woman who was really strong.

I talked to her and she told me that she had been a gymnast for several years, but got injured at age 23. She took more than a year off of gymnastics.  Then started again, focusing on strength and handbalancing, because she was never really strong and couldn't do a single pull-up.

After 2 years of training (so I guess she is 27 now), she is very strong but she said she seems to have reached her full potential.

She is training around 4-5 times a week, doing only body weight exercises, but she hasn't really made any progression the last months. She claimed that there is a point (in women lower than in men, of course) where you just can't progress anymore, exept you are undergoing a very tailored personal work-out plan and using extra weights.
Of course, this depends on gender, age, and genetics.

But she guessed in women it would definitely be a straddle planche or L-Seat to Handstand, as well as 20 pull-ups. 

Maybe if they really focus on this goal, use extra weights and have a tailor-made plan they might still show slow progress, but it is not guaranteed either. 

She added that the first 18 months she was working out, she was progressing quite easy. But then she got stuck and didn't progress anymore. 
She could do around 15 pull-ups (what I have seen so far), she could do a front lever with one leg tucked, she could do an advanced tuck planche. On p-bars she did L-Seat to Handstand and two straddle press to handstands in a row.

I was wondering if there really was a poit in strength training, which once you reached, can hardy go beyond expet you use extra weights or follow a tailored plan?

 

[Connor Davies]

Not sure I really understand the question.  Obviously once you get up to the extreme levels of strength it's going to be harder to build more strength, but it's that way with anything.

[ForzaCavaliere]

I believe strength training gains can be represented by the curve I made on MS Paint:  

 

 

 

After you have the initial increases (linear strength gain) then it becomes harder and harder to gain strength. Training will need proper periodization and use of meso/macrocycles once the non-linear phase is completed. As you mentioned, they need a specialized training regimen and proper diet once they reach the highest levels to procure any more strength increases, but the strength gain becomes increasingly small and not proportional to time spent training.

 

What's the point of continuing training? There's always increases in strength, so as long as you keep training you'll stay... ahead of the curve 

 

PS. No but seriously, if you've nearly reached the human potential (which is represented by the dotted line on my graph), you would have to be a seriously elite athlete competing at the highest levels; which, I'm assuming, would be what your life would revolve around at that point in time. In which case, it's your job to keep training.

[lisiflex]

I believe strength training gains can be represented by the curve I made on MS Paint:  

 

Untitled.jpg

 

After you have the initial increases (linear strength gain) then it becomes harder and harder to gain strength. Training will need proper periodization and use of meso/macrocycles once the non-linear phase is completed (represented by the curved part of the graph). As you mentioned, they need a specialized training regimen and proper diet once they reach the highest levels to procure any more strength increases, but the strength gain becomes increasingly small and not proportional to time spent training.

 

What's the point of continuing training? There's always increases in strength, so as long as you keep training you'll stay... ahead of the curve 

 

PS. No but seriously, if you've nearly reached the human potential (which is represented by the dotted line on my graph), you would have to be a seriously elite athlete competing at the highest levels; which, I'm assuming, would be what your life would revolve around at that point in time. In which case, it's your job to keep training.

Yes, I guess this is exactly what she tried to explain to me. Seems pretty logical! And thanks for the graphic!

Do you know, how high this "highest level" in females approx. is? I guess it depends on gender and genetics, right?

Is it possible that it might be a straddle planche, front lever and around 15-20 pull-ups in women? I have acutally never seen any "hobby-athlete" doing it, unless she was a high-level or elite athelte.

I am at my gym for more than a year now. We have a women's group training aerial silks. 

But I noticed they didn't progress in one year, although they work really hard. They are still doing the same amount of pull-ups and leg raises as well as tuck planches and tuck levers. Of course, they don't train for the goal of getting stronger, but  they do pull-ups, advanced tuck planches and levers 5 times a week for at least year now and they just don't progress.

[Murray Truelove]

Sounds more like poor programming.

[Tyler Gibson]

You can't really quantify the limit in the number of pull-ups, or the skills they will achieve. This will vary greatly in each individual. 

 

Also, we shouldn't confuse plateaus with genetic limits. When you are training for a long period of time, you will naturally have periods of faster gains and periods of slower gains. You will hit plateaus where you go a long period of time with no apparent gain in strength. This does not mean that you have reached your genetic limit, nor does it even mean that you are not making gains during that period. It merely means that you do not see a quantifiable increase in strength during that period, even if it is contributing to later strength gains.

 

The discussion of genetic limits, although interesting, is not relevant to the vast majority of athletes. Unless you are an olympic level athlete, or have been training the same discipline for decades, it is highly unlikely that you are anywhere near your genetic limit. People who have been training for a few years who think they have reached their limit have likely just reached a point where they need more sophisticated programming, or need to wait longer to see the fruits of their labor. 

[lisiflex]

You can't really quantify the limit in the number of pull-ups, or the skills they will achieve. This will vary greatly in each individual. 

 

Also, we shouldn't confuse plateaus with genetic limits. When you are training for a long period of time, you will naturally have periods of faster gains and periods of slower gains. You will hit plateaus where you go a long period of time with no apparent gain in strength. This does not mean that you have reached your genetic limit, nor does it even mean that you are not making gains during that period. It merely means that you do not see a quantifiable increase in strength during that period, even if it is contributing to later strength gains.

 

The discussion of genetic limits, although interesting, is not relevant to the vast majority of athletes. Unless you are an olympic level athlete, or have been training the same discipline for decades, it is highly unlikely that you are anywhere near your genetic limit. People who have been training for a few years who think they have reached their limit have likely just reached a point where they need more sophisticated programming, or need to wait longer to see the fruits of their labor. 

I guess that is what she meant. She said she has reached her current strength skills pretty fast. She progressed constantly. But now it's pretty hard for her to gain strength. 

The question was if it is "achievable" for a woman to do a straddle planche, because I don't know many who can do it, and if, they are professionals.  

Let's say it took her 6 months to tuck planche and 6 months to advanced tuck planche - will it take her 6 months for straddle planche and 6 to full one? Or is a women limited in some skills? 

If someone took 1 year to get to 10 pull-ups, will it take this person another year to 20 and another year to 30? I can't believe that.

 

[Connor Davies]

The question was if it is "achievable" for a woman to do a straddle planche, because I don't know many who can do it, and if, they are professionals.  

Let's say it took her 6 months to tuck planche and 6 months to advanced tuck planche - will it take her 6 months for straddle planche and 6 to full one? Or is a women limited in some skills? 

If someone took 1 year to get to 10 pull-ups, will it take this person another year to 20 and another year to 30? I can't believe that.

 

Yeah, that's not really how it works....

 

I've seen at least one woman do a straddle planche, but I've never seen a full planche.  I've also seen side lever, front levers and mannas, so at least as far as Foundation is concerned it's definitely achievable.

 

But buiding strength is not the same as building endurance.  It might take someone a couple years to get to their first pullup, but they might reach 50 in the next year.  Obviously this is a bit extreme, but you get my point.  It would be much more achievable to get to high numbers of pullups than a one arm pullup, because you already have the strength, you just need to build endurance at that level.

[Alan Tseng]

endurance is harder to build than strength

[lisiflex]

Yeah, that's not really how it works....

 

I've seen at least one woman do a straddle planche, but I've never seen a full planche.  I've also seen side lever, front levers and mannas, so at least as far as Foundation is concerned it's definitely achievable.

 

But buiding strength is not the same as building endurance.  It might take someone a couple years to get to their first pullup, but they might reach 50 in the next year.  Obviously this is a bit extreme, but you get my point.  It would be much more achievable to get to high numbers of pullups than a one arm pullup, because you already have the strength, you just need to build endurance at that level.

Yes, I get the point. That's what I wanted to know. I guess it's pretty "easy" for a woman to get an advanced tuck planche or front lever with one leg tucked if they follow the right progression and have a good weight to strength ratio. I even think with the right training and nutrition it can be achieved in less than a year.

But even if  you would follow a good progression program, it would not be this way: 6 months to tuck planche, 6 months to advanced tuck planche, 6 months to straddle planche, 6 months to full planche. What do you think?

[Connor Davies]

But even if  you would follow a good progression program, it would not be this way: 6 months to tuck planche, 6 months to advanced tuck planche, 6 months to straddle planche, 6 months to full planche. What do you think?

Nope! 

 

Depending on where you start from, it might take you years to get to tuck planche, or you might make it all the way to straddle in 6 months.  Or, you might follow what you said and make it to straddle in 18 months, then stagnate for 6 months and end up back at advanced tuck, then work your way back up to straddle in 2, then spend 5 years trying to get to full lay planche.

 

You can try to graph this stuff, but you have to remember that you're an incredibly complicated sack of chemicals that's controlled by a rather sporadic piece of wetware.  You're organic, and you can't output work like a machine would.

[lisiflex]

Nope! 

 

Depending on where you start from, it might take you years to get to tuck planche, or you might make it all the way to straddle in 6 months.  Or, you might follow what you said and make it to straddle in 18 months, then stagnate for 6 months and end up back at advanced tuck, then work your way back up to straddle in 2, then spend 5 years trying to get to full lay planche.

 

You can try to graph this stuff, but you have to remember that you're an incredibly complicated sack of chemicals that's controlled by a rather sporadic piece of wetware.  You're organic, and you can't output work like a machine would.

Totally agree with you. Thanks for your advice.I just came home from gym and I asked one of the boys who do amazing crossfit and gymnastic skills, some of them coach as well. They said, that if you start from nearly zero and then start working constantly on a good plan, most people will progress very well for 2 years. By then it gets usually very hard to see strength gain.

He said that MOST men will get to front lever and straddle planche in about 2 years if they have good mobility and programming. Full planche is hard to achieve, and he said it depends a lot on body mass!

He claimed that he saw very few women doing straddle planches, but he actually thinks that if a woman is quite small and skinny, there shouldn't be a difference to men in gaining planches! (?!?!)

Straddle planche in 2 years...I don't really believe it!

[Cody Ward]

Straddle planche in 2 years is indeed possible.

Anyways, there's a girl that can do a full planche so this whole theory is pointless.

Besides all of the skills mentioned in this thread are basically beginner skills. I'm sure women could go much farther if they wanted to.

[Coach Sommer]

endurance is harder to build than strength

This is absolutely false.

Endurance is much easier to develop than strength.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[lisiflex]

Straddle planche in 2 years is indeed possible.

Anyways, there's a girl that can do a full planche so this whole theory is pointless.

Besides all of the skills mentioned in this thread are basically beginner skills. I'm sure women could go much farther if they wanted to.

Thanks for this entry! Another thing I was wondering - but don't want to open another thread - is, if by the time someone finished F4 (no matter how long it took him) is able to do 7 skills. But what is the "quality" of those skills? 

Is it, for example, a really good straddle planche for some seconds or just very close to it? Maybe you are already able to do a straddle planche by the end of F2? But just not for very long or good form and muscle imbalances...

[Matthew Proulx]

endurance is harder to build than strength

Maximum endurance can be achieved in a matter of months and lost in even less, maximum strength takes decades and the only limiting factor is age. Anyone who has played sports at a competition level knows this. In fact to be honest men will not reach maximum strength potential till usually around 30-35 and usually this drops drastically gradually at around 40 but I have yet to read studies where lifelong athletes were tested. 

[Tyler Gibson]

Maximum endurance can be achieved in a matter of months and lost in even less, maximum strength takes decades and the only limiting factor is age. Anyone who has played sports at a competition level knows this. In fact to be honest men will not reach maximum strength potential till usually around 30-35 and usually this drops drastically at around 40 but I have yet to read studies where lifelong athletes were tested. 

I disagree that max strength drops off around 40. I don't know about in gymnastics, but in powerlifting there are world records that were set by guys in their forties. Their strength is at its peak, not in decline. Stan Efferding totaled an insane 2303 lbs at age 45. I know Jordan Jovtchev is about 40, and definitely still quite strong. 

[Cody Ward]

Thanks for this entry! Another thing I was wondering - but don't want to open another thread - is, if by the time someone finished F4 (no matter how long it took him) is able to do 7 skills. But what is the "quality" of those skills?

Is it, for example, a really good straddle planche for some seconds or just very close to it? Maybe you are already able to do a straddle planche by the end of F2? But just not for very long or good form and muscle imbalances...

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the mastery level is 5 sets of 10 sec.

[Matthew Proulx]

I disagree that max strength drops off around 40. I don't know about in gymnastics, but in powerlifting there are world records that were set by guys in their forties. Their strength is at its peak, not in decline. Stan Efferding totaled an insane 2303 lbs at age 45. I know Jordan Jovtchev is about 40, and definitely still quite strong. 

Which is why I stated I have not read any studies on lifelong athletes, hard to test what Stan Efferding's maximum strength could have been at 25 compared to what it is at 45. But it is no secret that because of the decrease in testosterone production at around 40-50yrs, that the body starts to lose muscle and bone density. Its a fact of life. Unless you are on testosterone treatment, an exception, or on steroids there is no way you are not going to start losing strength as you age as strength is directly correlated to muscle and its surrounding tissue. Anyone setting world records is an exception usually, and hard to judge a standard by these people.

 

 

Edit: Stan Efferding seems to be on serious juice, cannot use as credible test subject.

[Connor Davies]

Just because there's a drop in T levels doesn't mean that strength can't be built or improved upon. A relatively sedentary person WILL make increases in muscle mass all the way through their 90's. This goes for both men and women.

That being said, I don't doubt that physically people peak at their early 20's. It's just that strength takes so long to develop that no-one has actually reached it by the time they get there...

[lisiflex]

Just because there's a drop in T levels doesn't mean that strength can't be built or improved upon. A relatively sedentary person WILL make increases in muscle mass all the way through their 90's. This goes for both men and women.

That being said, I don't doubt that physically people peak at their early 20's. It's just that strength takes so long to develop that no-one has actually reached it by the time they get there...

Yes, I see. That's pretty logical! But when a male gymnast "peaks" they can do a lot more than straddle planches or front levers and the got there with dedication, hard work and perfect programming!

But for women, straddle planche is also achievable, although you didn't train for it your whole life? Maybe not a perfect, 20 second planche, but just a nice one for 5 seconds would be fine So this is possible with dedication?

[Tyler Gibson]

Which is why I stated I have not read any studies on lifelong athletes, hard to test what Stan Efferding's maximum strength could have been at 25 compared to what it is at 45. But it is no secret that because of the decrease in testosterone production at around 40-50yrs, that the body starts to lose muscle and bone density. Its a fact of life. Unless you are on testosterone treatment, an exception, or on steroids there is no way you are not going to start losing strength as you age as strength is directly correlated to muscle and its surrounding tissue. Anyone setting world records is an exception usually, and hard to judge a standard by these people.

 

 

Edit: Stan Efferding seems to be on serious juice, cannot use as credible test subject.

Yes I agree. I didn't mean that strength doesn't eventually start to decline. My point was merely that there are many examples of guys in their forties who are still at an extremely high level of strength. Jordan Jovtchev, Yuval Ayalon and Marcus Bondi, to name a few. If you look at strongman, powerlifting, olympic lifting, and highland games, all these competitions have a Master's class, in which you will see men in their forties and fifties demonstrating impressive strength and athleticism. Of course many of these men aren't as strong as they were when they were younger. My point is that it's very possible to stay strong, far stronger than the general population, well into later life.

[Connor Davies]

So this is possible with dedication?

Tell you what, you go train for it for a few years and then you come back and let us know.  Even if you never achieved it, you would build an incredible amount of strength just training for it.