Guest Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 http://journal.crossfit.com/2013/11/offline-episode-3-strict-pull-ups-before-kipping-pull-ups.tpl#commentsI would love to hear any of the more experienced guys opinion on this matter. the link to the video is in the top right corner just beneath the picture (view in flash player)What do you guys think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Connor Davies Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Don't kip your pullups. Ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 A kip? I am not looking to develop muscle endurance for the sake of participating in a game of "I am better than you because I can do more ___________ than you can." Plus I would rather not risk injuring my body to the extent that some crossfit games participants have. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Douglas Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Going strictly by that article, I'd rather listen to the Olympic level gymnast than the CF coaches who insist that he is wrong Kipping pullups (arch-hollow style) has its place, but that butterfly kip puts my teeth on edge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Connor Davies Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Kipping pullups (arch-hollow style) has its place, but that butterfly kip puts my teeth on edge.Care to expand on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Douglas Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Care to expand on this?https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/topic/1258-chinese-pullups/ In addition;- The issue isn't necessarily the pullup, it's the turnaround point, the 'bounce'. The load becomes significantly higher than bodyweight and moves into plyometric territory. If you don't even have strict dead hang pullup strength, trying to benefit from this is asking for trouble.- If this phase is avoided then you basically end up with a limited ROM assisted pullup with terrible form. Inefficient on three counts for strength building purposes and won't take you any further than pullups. How much weight do top CFers kip with, anyone? IMO flat out, incomparably inferior for basic strength establishment to strict pullups with full ROM. After that, they work very well. I expect we'll see these in the Movement series, as a side note (although we didn't do any swinging work at seminar so I can't say for 100%). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murray Truelove Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Never understood what anyone is trying to get out of kipping. If you're running an assault course it makes sense to make the movement easier but if you're strength training what's the point? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murray Truelove Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Damn those guys are defensive. You wouldn't let someone do an iron cross their first time on the rings. It's not that the move is unsafe, you just have to be prepared for it. With any exercise there's an inherent risk and to pretend that it's fine because it's "natural" (whatever that means?!) isn't just foolish but harmful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jono Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 It all boils down to what you actually want to get out of your pull-ups. Though I have no idea what they're getting out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murray Truelove Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 It all boils down to what you actually want to get out of your pull-ups. Though I have no idea what they're getting out of it.Injury? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Sommer Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 The blind leading the blind. Kipping pullups are an advanced plyometric strength element and should be avoided by beginners. Period. Why?As they lack any meaningful degree of muscular strength, kipping pullups prematurely force beginners to initiate lift by bouncing off the connective tissue of the shoulder girdle at the bottom of the movement. We are dealing with multiples of bodyweight here due to the plyometric nature of the repulsion out of the bottom. So beginners who are not strong enough to handle their own bodyweight are now exposed to multiples of bodyweight? Also as the shoulder girdle is not strong enough to handle the load, the shoulder girdle is also stretched past its current safe max ROM. To recap:Beginners. Weak. Multiples of bodyweight. Excessive ROM. Bouncing off connective tissue. High Reps. High Volume. It is only since the widespread adoption of kipping pullups as an introductory 'strength' element that we have seen a rash of slap tears in adult fitness enthusiasts. David's recommendation of 3 dead hang is too conservative. A 5 rep minimum is more suitable. Yours in Fitness,Coach Sommer 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blairbob Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Yeah, it really shocked me that no one but the PT was really backing David. I kind of considered this a damn fail on Carl's part as well. WTH, Carl?! My guess is the hollow to arch kip probably only develops a force of about 1.5-2gxBW. In general it's rather slow. Maybe 3x and I doubt that much. However, Butterfly kipping could easily have forces of 3xBW to maybe 4.5 or 5. Once going it's probably pretty similar to the force of a tap swing for a giant, maybe even something like a double back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cody Ward Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 There's only one kind of butterfly here at gymnasticbodies and it's not the crossfit kind. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Collins Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 There was some tension in that room. Coach summarised it perfectly. If your joints cannot handle regular pull ups why would you want to put a huge load under speed. Simple biomechanics...only a matter of time before you get injured. I expect as time goes on and the data shows the high rate of injury for the shoulder training methods will have to change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Mifsud Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 CF's idea is that mechanical work is increased by kipping ie you can lift your body to the bar more times then under strict conditions. CF then classify improvements in fitness by an increase in the number of reps of the movement or doing a wod faster that incorporates these movements. After a couple of years of crossfit I did not see many of the people in my box make any meaningful increases in strength or ability (ie obtain more complex/demanding and advanced body weight movements) through developing kipping chins or other kipping movements. A functional movement should lead to the ability to do other more complex and useful movements and from experience in observing and doing I do not believe a kip translates to a "fitter" or stronger person irrespective of the cloak of doing more mechanical work. It is unfortunate that through competition some have used and viewed kipping as the way to do more work regarding body weight movements rather then further develop true capacity using the movements as intended and moving on to more complex and demanding movements later. Compare this to the barbell movements in CF which at all levels have come a very long way over the last few years with some guys and girls lifting quite well. I think it has held back the potential that crossfit as a training program and as a sport can offer its participants in challenging them to grow not by adding numbers but by adding complexity and difficulty to their training as this is much harder to develop but much more beneficial. I say CF as opposed to local boxes as in my view the sport is now driving the training program. If CF said they don't do kipping handstand push ups it would disappear overnight from their program. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 There's only one kind of butterfly here at gymnasticbodies and it's not the crossfit kind.hahahaha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keilani Gutierrez Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 There's only one kind of butterfly here at gymnasticbodies and it's not the crossfit kind.....they are both very beautiful. edit: this is also my favorite forum post. ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Collins Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 They really need to ban the kipping handstand push up. The neck is not a weight bearing joint. It would be far better to reduce the reps and do strict HSPU. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Douglas Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 They really need to ban the kipping handstand push up. The neck is not a weight bearing joint. It would be far better to reduce the reps and do strict HSPU.I don't think you're going to find any argument on this here 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Connor Davies Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I don't think you're going to find any argument on this here ...The neck is not a weight bearing joint....Looks plenty weight bearing to me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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