Front and back walkovers/limbers

[Jon Douglas]

So I was unable to get near the ground without bending my legs and/ or arching in todays session.

I've dialled back to static bridge trying to reach full ppt-- taking all the lower back arch from it, stretching my chest further, and getting the weight further over my hands. Is this appropriate?

I can't help but feel I've wasted a whole lot of time training this incorrectly building up bad habits with good intentions, and strength on bad technique. It's immensely frustrating trying to see what stage to begin at in trying to rebuild it. Sorry all for letting it make me snappy

[Katharina Huemer]

Very interesting article

I have a question, that no one could really answer yet. I am really flexible, walkovers and front limbers are no problem at all. I also do chest rollovers and stuff. But I was wondering if this could cause any kind of injury? To discs or vertebraes?

Is stretching bad? Hope someone can help!

[Karl-Erik Karlsen]

My approach to skill development is definitely NOT the norm in the gymnastics community.

 

- Make building a physical structure that strength-wise and mobility-wise can handle the demands of later performing high level technical skills correctly the first priority.  To my mind it is not reasonable to expect an average physique to perform at an elite level of technical proficiency.  

 

Fully 50% of my younger athletes practice schedule was spent on physical preparation and mastering the basics of GST: limbers and reverse planche, Lsit, straddle L, manna, planche, back lever, front lever, 60s handstand and press handstand variations (planche press HS, HBP, manna pike press to HS, stalder press HS), rope climbs, swinging dips to handstand etc.

 

There is a reason that the Foundation series and the Handstand series are so structured; my own athletes were capable of performing every single progression in these courses flawlessly.

 

- Make recovery a priority.  Allan's most productive training schedule was Monday, Wednesday and Friday twice a day (5-7am and 3:30-6:30) and a single long practice on Saturdays (9:00-1pm).  No practice at all on Tuesday, Thursday or Sunday.

 

- Begin teaching kinesthetic awareness (how to flip, twist, multiple twists, multiple flips, twisting multiple flips) under reduced training loads (trampolines, mini tramps, tumbl traks) immediately.  My younger athletes spent 30 min per day on trampoline (a group of 10-12 athletes spread out over four different tramps) prior to beginning their daily warmup.  One day was forward twisting, one day was backward twisting, one day was multiple flips backwards (and twisting mulltiple backward flips for the more advanced), one day was multiple flips forward (and twisting multiple forward flips for the more advanced).  Every one worked with the same set of progressive drills.  

 

No one moved on until they could perform the previous drill perfectly.

 

At 8 years old starting from and landing on the tramp, Allan could twist 1/2, 1/1, 3/2, 2/1, 5/2 and 3/1 twisting in a single flip forward and backward.  He had multiple double back and double front tucks in a row, 1/1 in backward (twist on the first flip of a double back), 1/1 out backward (twist on the second flip of a double back).  

 

Into the foam pit he also had triple flips (forward and backward), the occassional quad front (one of his team mates could do a quin; five flips in a single jump), double layouts (forward and backward) and multiple twisting double layouts (forward and backward).

 

By the time Allan was ready to learn and compete his first double layouts off of high bar, he was completely stress free about it as he had already long ago mastered the skill on trampoline.  

 

- Master basic swing on the competitive events.  Again drill by drill, progression by progression, skill by skill.  Never moving on until the previous skill was perfect.  

 

Something that very few people appear to understand is that mastering a single skill so that it is flawless will in turn spread that high quality of movement to all of their other skills.

 

Hence tumbling began with mastering the various rolls (forward tuck straddle pike, backward tuck straddle pike, handstand rolls, back extension rolls), then mastering all of the cartwheel variations (right, left, series, alternating, near arm, far arm, dive and blocking), then handspring variations and single somersault variations simultaneously (dive rolls, front flip tuck pike layout variations, standing back tuck) before moving on into connected tumbling.

 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

I don't want to highjack the thread and turn the focus here, but I had one question for Coach or anyone else knowledgeable in this area. The above post Coach made was very interesting and I'm referring to this.

I do about 3-4 combined F1/H1 workouts per week and one very light adult tumbling class. It's hardly exertion, mostly just kinesthetics. But those guys are using elements way to hard for a zombie like me, so I'm relying on GB to take me to the level I need for mobility and handstand progress I need to do more advanced tumbling stuff. Therefore, I mostly do my own stuff on the trampoline to improve my airsense and then some forward/backward rolls on the floor. That's how far I have gotten until now. I figured there would be no point in trying to join in handspring drills at my level, since it would likely only result in injury and horrible movement patterns.

So, back to Coach's post:

On my own, at the gymnastics gym - what kind of progressions should I be looking at to learn some basic tumbling, next to my F1/H1 training? My goals would be something as modest as backward and forward flip, cartwheel, backward and forward rolls and later, perhaps even handsprings.

I would be truly grateful for just a basic outline on what kind of sequence I should try to learn things in and perhaps an estimate of time spent per session on each element, like a set/rep scheme for tumbling. I will ask the coach at the gym for feedback and technique tips and I understand that this kind of outline won't be anything near real coaching. But just some kind of starting point for developing a bit of tumbling along with my strength and mobility would be fantastic! Great post by Coach!

 

[Karl-Erik Karlsen]

Or is this something that will be covered in the Movement series?

[Jon Douglas]

What I thought was a correction may in fact be the opposite here

Subjectively it feels much better; glutes tense, lower back very comfortable before during and after, the arch feels much higher in my back, but I can't see that here....

 

 

 

 

Edit;

Maybe it's improving, but still in the process of gradual correction....

[Jon Douglas]

Also, this gets funnier the more I look at it.

 

 

Totally making that my avatar.

[Cole Dano]

It's moving in the right direction Jon.

[Jon Douglas]

It's moving in the right direction Jon.

Thanks, I'll keep at it.

[Keilani Gutierrez]

It's moving in the right direction Jon.

what do you mean? Yoshi clearly has 2 legs not 4!   

[Alexander Svensson]

what do you mean? Yoshi clearly has 2 legs not 4!   

Can't you see he has a deformed tail? 

[Keilani Gutierrez]

it's got to be a Fusion Dance April Fool's prank. 

[Jon Douglas]

Visible progress after a couple weeks only doing hard static bridge, but still a ways to go-- most notably legs still bending to get the last few degrees to the ground. Will continue with static bridge, and throw in a couple 1/2 limbers along the way to work on the motion.

[Jon Douglas]

So this is where my static bridge has been for a while; now it is where my limbers are. I am getting the weight onto my hands more than my feet but the pull hasn't come yet

Having fixed that, thanks a lot Cole and Coach, I can now bridge every day, with no lower back pain or stiffness. And it *feels* good to stretch so much in the chest

[Jon Douglas]

Well, since my laptop is still being repaired I can't rotate that picture on my phone, so inb4Christian makes a joke about Australian gravity

[Christian Sørlie]

:-(

Since you are down under I would say that picture is rightway up

:-)

[Jon Douglas]

This struck me a little, as the difference that an expert eye makes. The previous picture was yesterday; I certainly haven't gained any concrete flexibility overnight, but Coach mentioned in passing that the chest needs to be pushed out past the hands, which I wasn't doing.

Here's todays result of implementing that cue;

Shoulders over hands and on their way to past, completely comfortable and pleasant to hold. All it took was taking apparently minor advice rather than resting on a passable completion. Details, yall. Details and stubbornness

[LeeLee Weiland]

On 10/28/2013 at 7:18 AM, Coach Sommer said:

My approach to skill development is definitely NOT the norm in the gymnastics community.

 

- Make building a physical structure that strength-wise and mobility-wise can handle the demands of later performing high level technical skills correctly the first priority.  To my mind it is not reasonable to expect an average physique to perform at an elite level of technical proficiency.  

 

Fully 50% of my younger athletes practice schedule was spent on physical preparation and mastering the basics of GST: limbers and reverse planche, Lsit, straddle L, manna, planche, back lever, front lever, 60s handstand and press handstand variations (planche press HS, HBP, manna pike press to HS, stalder press HS), rope climbs, swinging dips to handstand etc.

 

There is a reason that the Foundation series and the Handstand series are so structured; my own athletes were capable of performing every single progression in these courses flawlessly.

 

- Make recovery a priority.  Allan's most productive training schedule was Monday, Wednesday and Friday twice a day (5-7am and 3:30-6:30) and a single long practice on Saturdays (9:00-1pm).  No practice at all on Tuesday, Thursday or Sunday.

 

- Begin teaching kinesthetic awareness (how to flip, twist, multiple twists, multiple flips, twisting multiple flips) under reduced training loads (trampolines, mini tramps, tumbl traks) immediately.  My younger athletes spent 30 min per day on trampoline (a group of 10-12 athletes spread out over four different tramps) prior to beginning their daily warmup.  One day was forward twisting, one day was backward twisting, one day was multiple flips backwards (and twisting mulltiple backward flips for the more advanced), one day was multiple flips forward (and twisting multiple forward flips for the more advanced).  Every one worked with the same set of progressive drills.  

 

No one moved on until they could perform the previous drill perfectly.

 

At 8 years old starting from and landing on the tramp, Allan could twist 1/2, 1/1, 3/2, 2/1, 5/2 and 3/1 twisting in a single flip forward and backward.  He had multiple double back and double front tucks in a row, 1/1 in backward (twist on the first flip of a double back), 1/1 out backward (twist on the second flip of a double back).  

 

Into the foam pit he also had triple flips (forward and backward), the occassional quad front (one of his team mates could do a quin; five flips in a single jump), double layouts (forward and backward) and multiple twisting double layouts (forward and backward).

 

By the time Allan was ready to learn and compete his first double layouts off of high bar, he was completely stress free about it as he had already long ago mastered the skill on trampoline.  

 

- Master basic swing on the competitive events.  Again drill by drill, progression by progression, skill by skill.  Never moving on until the previous skill was perfect.  

 

Something that very few people appear to understand is that mastering a single skill so that it is flawless will in turn spread that high quality of movement to all of their other skills.

 

Hence tumbling began with mastering the various rolls (forward tuck straddle pike, backward tuck straddle pike, handstand rolls, back extension rolls), then mastering all of the cartwheel variations (right, left, series, alternating, near arm, far arm, dive and blocking), then handspring variations and single somersault variations simultaneously (dive rolls, front flip tuck pike layout variations, standing back tuck) before moving on into connected tumbling.

 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Are there any books or materials online that go into detail about skill development?  Or into any depth about volume and frequency?  For example, bodybuilding has all sorts of sets and reps schedules and transformation testimonies that track specific progress timelines.  I can't find anything like this anywhere!  There is no lack of "tutorial" videos on Youtube, but those are simply silly because they don't go into ANY of the requisite skills and strength necessary for the actual skill itself, nor do they give timelines or benchmarks for progress, nor do they take into account the soft tissue and elastic strength development.  I would love to learn more about how long it would take an athlete to develop, for example, the strength to efficiently tumble at an elite level.  How many hours across how many months or years, and doing what in terms of volume and frequency.  You know what I mean?

[Alessandro Mainente]

I do not think there are references about that, you need to be trained by a coach with a good experience. basing on your techncial execution the coach can understand how much do you need to practice something.

[LeeLee Weiland]

On 10/28/2013 at 6:46 PM, Gage Clawson said:

Very eye opening information in this thread. I have been attending an adult gymnastics class and have been moderately successful in learning the back handspring and back tuck. However according to this thread it would seem I am nowhere near ready to perform these skills. Would you advise I forget about training these skills for the time being?

No general ideas?

[LeeLee Weiland]

How about online  coaching?

[Alessandro Mainente]

Teaching technical skill with an online coaching approach it is the worst of the option.