OAC Progression

[Jeff Walker]

OAC is one of my goals.  Whats the ebst progression.  I cant do a Negative yet.  I can do a Negative with assistance from my pointer finger and I can do Assisted Full OACs holding a rope about a first down.  Should I do the FUll OACs and just move my fist down or should I do the Assisted Negatives or both?  I also tried doing an Assited Full OAC on one of those Dip Machines that have a kneeling pad, that felt good as well.   

 

Any thoughts?

[Mikkel Ravn]

Don't do negatives if you aren't able to control them - They are tough, and if you have not prepared yourself for them, they may screw you up badly. 

 

Be careful. I began OAC training way too early, and got a very serious golfer's elbow, which took 6-12 months to get over, and that old injury will never go away entirely. Once injured, you cannot reverse the process. This will forever make it harder for me to achieve a OAC, because the old injury flares up, if I start pushing myself too hard too soon.

 

It's not what you want to hear, but your best bet is absolutely to work through F1-4. After that, you will be close to an OAC, and you will be ready. This is particularly true, if you are no longer in your twenties, with the reduced recovery that this entails. The F-series is the closest thing you'll have to a coach, which you'll need to get this move.

[Daniel Burnham]

 

Be careful. I began OAC training way too early, and got a very serious golfer's elbow, which took 6-12 months to get over, and that old injury will never go away entirely. Once injured, you cannot reverse the process. This will forever make it harder for me to achieve a OAC, because the old injury flares up, if I start pushing myself too hard too soon.

 

 

THIS!  It took me a very long time to get over the elbow tendonitis. It eventually went away as I prepped for cross but it was a long struggle.  

 

In an effort to keep this from becoming another muscle up thread I will tell you exactly what I did.

 

First I thought I was strong enough to work them.  After all I had 15+ chins with 25 pounds and could do one rep with about 75 pounds.  I started doing assisted chins with a band and negatives.  I hurt myself after about 2 weeks of this.  So I rested and decided to build up weighted chins.  I went back and hurt myself again after a week of doing negatives and assisted ones.  This time I had to take month off from pulling.

 

Then I went to a GB Seminar.  I started doing the rope climbs and as they got progressively harder I could feel my elbow heal and get stronger.  Then one day I tried a one arm chin on rope and got it!

 

I still don't train them but can do one with both arms now.

 

Moral of the story.  Do rope climbs and they will come.  Plus the muscle up will get better and you'll prep the elbows for real ring work.  Rope climbs are one of the most beneficial exercises there are, if you don't use your feet and if you approach them methodically.  They have nearly infinite carryover to other skills.

[Arthur Wong]

Man all the talk about rope climbs is making me so excited, it's never anything but huge praise. My rope is supposed to come in next Weds which my deload week

[Connor Davies]

THIS!  It took me a very long time to get over the elbow tendonitis. It eventually went away as I prepped for cross but it was a long struggle.  

 

In an effort to keep this from becoming another muscle up thread I will tell you exactly what I did.

 

First I thought I was strong enough to work them.  After all I had 15+ chins with 25 pounds and could do one rep with about 75 pounds.  I started doing assisted chins with a band and negatives.  I hurt myself after about 2 weeks of this.  So I rested and decided to build up weighted chins.  I went back and hurt myself again after a week of doing negatives and assisted ones.  This time I had to take month off from pulling.

 

Then I went to a GB Seminar.  I started doing the rope climbs and as they got progressively harder I could feel my elbow heal and get stronger.  Then one day I tried a one arm chin on rope and got it!

 

I still don't train them but can do one with both arms now.

 

Moral of the story.  Do rope climbs and they will come.  Plus that muscle up will get better and youll prep the elbows for real ring work.  Rope climbs are one of the most beneficial exercises there are, if you don't use your feet and if you approach them methodically.  They have nearly infinite carryover to other skills.

You're making me excited for rope climbs.  Tell me they're going to be in F3.

[timpane]

 Do rope climbs and they will come.  Plus that muscle up will get better and youll prep the elbows for real ring work.  you really mean that...?

[Brian Li]

Last night I had a random dream that I was doing rope climb cirques and it somehow got me excited to try out rope climbing. Now I just need access to a gymnastics facility or buy a rope.

 

Which elbow flexor do you feel works the hardest in rope climbs? How come legless rope climbs don't give people elbow tendonitis like I often hear OAC work does when they are both very similar if not the same movements?

[Daniel Burnham]

Last night I had a random dream that I was doing rope climb cirques and it somehow got me excited to try out rope climbing. Now I just need access to a gymnastics facility or buy a rope.

Which elbow flexor do you feel works the hardest in rope climbs? How come legless rope climbs don't give people elbow tendonitis like I often hear OAC work does when they are both very similar if not the same movements?

So I'm somewhat tiptoeing around this as to not reveal any future product details. Part of what makes the rope climb less likely to cause injury is coach has done a very nice job of laying out progressions. The other is that the rope balances the elbow. And puts an isometric element in there which won't cause as much damage. The arm that is not actively pulling is either holding or pushing downward as part of its movement. This builds overall elbow strength.

[Daniel Burnham]

 Do rope climbs and they will come.  Plus that muscle up will get better and youll prep the elbows for real ring work.  you really mean that...?

Oh yea! My elbow constantly gave me trouble.  After finishing rope climb progressions I had no trouble with my elbow while working iron cross or the like.  

 

Rope climbs should be a staple, but should be approached carefully.  You can get tendonitis from them if you try without prep.  Follow the progressions in Foundation and you'll be climbing in no time.  Personally I tried to hit the goal of coaches kids and was doing 2 + 1 +1 rope climbs as my warmup before working reverse muscle ups or ring strength elements.

 

I know of no other high level gymnast who has not done similar.  We also regularly race in the gym.  Right now I can beat everyone but two people in my gym who have risen to the challenge, one of which was a level 9 gymnast turned rock climber and the other an NCAA gymnast.  Use the progressions, get stronger, and move on to cooler things.   If OAC was a side effect think about how satisfying the end goals are.

[Connor Davies]

 Do rope climbs and they will come.  Plus that muscle up will get better and youll prep the elbows for real ring work.  you really mean that...?

Yeah listen to this guy.  He got scary strong way too fast.

[Joshua Slocum]

 

OAC is one of my goals.  Whats the ebst progression.  I cant do a Negative yet.  I can do a Negative with assistance from my pointer finger and I can do Assisted Full OACs holding a rope about a first down.  Should I do the FUll OACs and just move my fist down or should I do the Assisted Negatives or both?  I also tried doing an Assited Full OAC on one of those Dip Machines that have a kneeling pad, that felt good as well.   

 

Any thoughts?

 

There's little to say here that hasn't already been covered in your muscle-up thread. The best designed progression you can follow is the RC progression in the Foundation series.  

[Boban Ilievski]

Can Rocky's assisted OAC be considered as part of the progression? One arm on the bar and with the other one he's grabbing the working arm's wrist.

 

[Connor Davies]

Yeah it's one of the progressions.  Teaches you how to pull from one hand.  Not anywhere near as hard as a true one arm pullup tho.

[Jono]

It's a good method because it's similar to the real thing in that you also have to control your twisting. Also, if you aren't squeezing your forearm to death, it's actually quite close to the real thing, at least for me. I do all of my assists with a gentle press/pull from the assisting arm, depending on the variation.

[Samuli Jyrkinen]

It's a good method because it's similar to the real thing in that you also have to control your twisting. Also, if you aren't squeezing your forearm to death, it's actually quite close to the real thing, at least for me. I do all of my assists with a gentle press/pull from the assisting arm, depending on the variation.

If you grab only your shoulder, then it is closer the real deal. Grabbing the forearm or even the elbow is still far from the real deal, you are pulling with the other side of your body the dominant arm closer to the body with significant force which really helps a lot.

 

I think it is smart to consider that there is still a small "skill element" in OAC, I am not sure how far the RC will go because I haven't had the opportunity to see F3/F4 work but although RC will build tremendous strength, many of us still need to work on the specific OAC work to actually learn the skill.

[Jono]

If you grab only your shoulder, then it is closer the real deal. Grabbing the forearm or even the elbow is still far from the real deal, you are pulling with the other side of your body the dominant arm closer to the body with significant force which really helps a lot.

 

I think it is smart to consider that there is still a small "skill element" in OAC, I am not sure how far the RC will go because I haven't had the opportunity to see F3/F4 work but although RC will build tremendous strength, many of us still need to work on the specific OAC work to actually learn the skill.

Forearm assists are very close to the real deal for me because I ever so lightly grab the forearm with the assisting arm. Assuming the person is grabbing as the arm/shoulder as hard as possible for each position, then yes, shoulder assists are going to be harder. A funny thing I've noticed is that I actually find a full OAP slightly easier (maybe less awkward is a better word) than the shoulder assisted OAP. I think this is because the assisting arm tends to get in the way of the movement, and also causes me to twist the wrong way (sometimes).

 

I agree with your 2nd paragraph about OAC being movement specific. If anyone wants a relaxed (2-3s before pulling), no stretch-reflex, dead hang OAC/OAP - which is the type of OAC I mean whenever I talk about them - then good luck trying to get that with RC, and good luck getting it any time soon.

 

I would also take the RC-for-OAC claims/advice with a pinch of salt, because there isn't much evidence for it being true, if at all. (Note that I'm not denying RC will make you a better gymnast overall.) I've also seen some talk about partial OACs already forming as a result of early RC progressions. I personally achieved partial OACs  back when I was doing nothing but high-rep, endurance chin-ups and nothing else, suggesting there is nothing magical going on with RC here. The strength for partial OACs (this also includes a slightly-off-dead-hang OACs) doesn't even come close to the type I referred to above, and RC would be a very inefficient way to go about getting that (specific) strength.

Bottom line: If you're on the site to discuss certain things and find out info because you have an interest in learning 1-2 bodyweight-related moves (like me, and I think jwalker too), then taking the specific approach is better

[Brian Li]

So I haven't trained any pulling exercises for many months since the beginning of this year and lost my full FL and OACs (which were a side effect of the FL for me) as a result and so for the last month or two I started training the FL regularly again this time concurrently with FL rows to where I'm currently at 5-7 sec half lay FL and 3 good reps of half lay straddle FL rows...then yesterday I tried a OAC and can do a dead hang one on my left arm. This is without any OAC work or rope climbing, just the FL and FL row work for me that got my OAC back.

 

So I think FL work (best done with FL rows) can be very beneficial for the OAC. Of course you shouldn't replace rope climbing with FL work just to get a OAC as RC is way more specific to a OAC. The Foundation Series has you work both the FL and RC for pulling.

[Jon Douglas]

I think this ^ is going to depend on your individual strong and weak links. My back is strong so I can begin the dead hang pull but as the load shifts more to my arm i can't complete a full rep. Get stuck around halfway.

Cycling through different planes of motion as per foundation and ending with good elbow conditioning with the actual rope climbs is much more beneficial to my goals than doing dedicated oac work. I would imagine as Daniel and others have said that the majority of people who work through foundation will probably develop OAC along the way, although likely not all and not for huge reps because there are much harder and more productive skills to spend ones time on if ones goal is advanced GST

Just my 2c. If the goal is an OAC itself then go nuts, but it seems to me that the elbow, shoulder and lat prep included in foundation work would go a long way to alleviating the tendonitis that seems pretty inevitable otherwise.

[Coach Sommer]

... I would also take the RC-for-OAC claims/advice with a pinch of salt, because there isn't much evidence for it being true, if at all. (Note that I'm not denying RC will make you a better gymnast overall.) ...

 

Understandable.  Very few people are able to accept that methods other than their own have value; especially when the protocol being discussed is far outside their own personal experience.

 

However whether or not you can accept the veracity of the stated RC results does nothing to change their reality.  When you take the time to master RC, then your opinion regarding the merits of RC has pertinence.  Not before.

 

This may have been one of the primary benefits of being a US National Team Coach for so many years; I developed a very pragmatic, no nonsense attitude toward training.  No room for pet theories, no place for second best, no refusing to accept reality.  Something either worked or it didn't.  If it didn't, move on.  High level results became the only criteria which mattered.

 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Jono]

I've never denied the superiority of RC for becoming the best overall gymnast   I'm not sure why people keep thinking I'm trying to say this!!

 

 

Here I'm talking about the case where someone's goal is the OAC (and maybe a few other cool moves), and not to become an overall gymnast (which I think is the case for jwalker) ...... In this case, specific OAC work is the correct route. The reason? Because the OAC route is way more effective and time-efficient in obtaining a dead hang OAC when compared with the RC progressions (Note: I say way more effective in obtaining a dead hang oac - I didn't say way more effective for overall gymnastic ability). So it makes sense that the direct way is the route to take. And I said this in order to help out jwalker, because I feel the other responses weren't that helpful.

 

I said to take the RC-OAC statements with a pinch of salt because they're only statements that people probably read on here without questioning, and then started repeating. They don't have a basis - Where is the actual evidence of RC resulting in dead hang OACs? Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is only one case, and no others.   That single case being Daniel, I think. And I'm pretty sure he already had a good strength base before even getting involved in rope climbing. He didn't state his form either, and I've already pointed out the big strength differences in the different forms in my last post.

[Joshua Slocum]

Even if your goal is just to achieve a handful of specific moves, the approach of building a general strength foundation is still going to be more efficient than immediately beginning specific work when that skill is as advanced as a dead-hang, full ROM OAC. For a beginner, specific work on advanced skills is much more likely to result in plateaus or injuries than it is to result in achieving the goal movement.

[Jono]

Agreed about the strength foundation.

 

I didn't mean to imply that people (especially beginners) should get right into OAC work (or any advanced moves) right off the bat - especially if they couldn't, for example, even do 5 chin-ups - there'd still be a progressive structure to my recommendations.

 

-First 'd get them to build up the strength through a combination of harder, two-armed bw pull-up variations, as well as the basic variations with added weight.

-Once certain standards are met for both the bw and weighted variations, that's when I'd recommend specific OAC work (instead of rope climbing).

 

I feel as though this would be the most effective/fastest approach for attaining the OAC if that was the person's only goal. If done properly, injury/tendinitis wouldn't be a concern at all - like it hasn't been with me (I can't even recall what elbow pain feels like). Additionally, if OAC was the only goal, I would also supplement this training program with antagonistic movements solely to prevent any structural imbalances.

[Chris Aldersley]

 

 

I said to take the RC-OAC statements with a pinch of salt because they're only statements that people probably read on here without questioning, and then started repeating. They don't have a basis - Where is the actual evidence of RC resulting in dead hang OACs? Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is only one case, and no others.  

 

...I feel as though this would be the most effective/fastest approach for attaining the OAC if that was the person's only goal... Additionally, if OAC was the only goal, I would also supplement this training program with antagonistic movements solely to prevent any structural imbalances. 

The evidence is in Coach Sommers words. He's got a lot of experience, so I think he knows what he is talking about.

 

If your only goal is the OAC, then yeah focusing on that with a logical progression and doing lots of pullups may get you there quicker. But as you say, you should train the antagonistic muscles to prevent imbalance. This is already laid out in the Foundation series.

[Jono]

The evidence is in Coach Sommers words. He's got a lot of experience, so I think he knows what he is talking about.

Yes, but that evidence he is referring to is RC being the best tool for overall gymnastic development, which I have never denied at all in any of my posts.

 

Again, here I'm referring to which tool is fastest/most effective in obtaining a OAC -- NOT the best tool for overall gymnastic development.

[Martin Majer]

What RC variation are we talking about? I guess that Cirques may help in developing OAC, but normal rope climb (without legs) doesn't help much. I am used to climbing up to 20 ropes (6-8m, quite short) in L-Sit/Straddle position after every training, I can also do some Cirques (3-5, depends on my other training) but I am nowhere near OAC.